Author Topic: The Non-Hetero Royals  (Read 131247 times)

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Offline RichC

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The Non-Hetero Royals
« on: January 19, 2005, 12:55:20 AM »
Ok, I'm interested in finding out which members of the IF (and their extended family) may have had non-hetero "relationships" (i.e. affairs) and what their contemporaries thought about it.  (I'm trying to phrase this in such a way so as not to offend anyone.)  Felix was done on another thread, but what about KR, Serge, Ernie, the Kaiser, Dmitri, George, George of Greece, Peter of Oldenburg?  (Did I leave anybody out?) And what about the women?  Ella?  If I was a princess who preferred women and knew I'd have to marry, I might pick someone like Serge...

I'd love to hear about any extant contemporary correspondence on the topic.  I've read KR's diary entires in Passion so there was definitely some kind of nascent subculture going on in St. Petersburg then.  As a gay man, I'd like to find out more about it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by RichC »

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2005, 10:42:39 AM »
Well, KR definitely had relationships with other men--in his diaries he recounts them and how he wrestled with it.

George of Greece is rumored (we discussed this a lot on the thread in the Danish section) to have had a long-term affair with his uncle Waldemar of Denmark

There have been rumors about all the others--Serge, Wilhelm II (whose closest friend Eulenberg was apparently gay), Peter of Oldenberg , Dmitri and George A. I don't know of any conclusive evidence on way or the other and certainly Serge has been accused of all kinds of things so it's hard to separate fact from rumor. I doubt that Wilhelm II was though.

As for Ernie, that's been well-documented in a thread in the Hesse section.


I've never heard of Ella showing any inclination that way.
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helenazar

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2005, 01:55:31 PM »
Quote

About Ella! No chance!
 One thing I learned: almost anything is possible about almost anybody. Who knows really? Some people were and are very good at being very discreet or not acting upon their impulses. So I have a feeling that there may have been a lot more secretly 'non-heterosexual'-acting royals than we will ever know  ;).

P.S. I am not implying that Ella may have been one of them, I am just saying never categorically dismiss anything about anyone....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

bluetoria

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2005, 02:07:07 PM »
Yeah, but no but...no...not Ella. I'm convinced.  :)

Offline RichC

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2005, 03:50:31 PM »
I didn't mean to suggest that I had evidence about Ella being lesbian, or that I was drawing a conclusion based on speculation.  But if she was, it's not a bad thing.  I was just wondering, seeing as she didn't appear to have the kind of passionate marriage with Serge that Alix had with Nicholas.  Nor am I aware of her showing serious interest in any other males, either before her marriage or after Serge's death.

Offline RichC

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2005, 04:15:51 PM »
I'm hunting around on the web and found a web page called the Russian Out List and it names the following as "gay"

Grand Duke Nikolai Mikhailovich (grandson of Nicholas I, shot 1919)

Grand Duke Mikhail Pavlovich (brother of Tsar Nicholas I)

and (he's not a Royal, but I hadn't seen this before)

Dmitry Pavlovich Purishkevich (murdered Rasputin)
 
So, the three ringleaders of the Rasputin killing all had (or were rumored to have had relationships with other men)

Wow.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by RichC »

helenazar

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2005, 04:17:33 PM »
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I didn't mean to suggest that I had evidence about Ella being lesbian, or that I was drawing a conclusion based on speculation.  But if she was, it's not a bad thing.  I was just wondering, seeing as she didn't appear to have the kind of passionate marriage with Serge that Alix had with Nicholas.  Nor am I aware of her showing serious interest in any other males, either before her marriage or after Serge's death.


In any case, even if she was, it didn't seem that she ever acted upon it and that she appeared to have stayed faithful to her husband (even after his death) no matter which way she may have leaned. So it doesn't really matter.

Offline RichC

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2005, 04:37:29 PM »
Excuse me but it matters to me and it is of interest to me.  The way these people led their lives and how they felt matters to a lot of people.

Let's say, for example, a letter or diary comes to light which indicates that Ella was attracted to a woman but couldn't act on it.  Wouln't it be worth publishing that?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by RichC »

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2005, 04:47:39 PM »
Perhaps she didn't feel any real attraction for Serge, who knows? Marie Pavlovna Jr writes that they shared the same bed but seemed curiously distant physically from each other. I don't think she was gay but perhaps the spiritual plane that she lived on after Serge's death was already germenating in her all along. Maybe she was of the personality that if she'd been raised Orthodox, she would've chosen to embrace the sisterhood rather than marriage.
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helenazar

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2005, 04:50:46 PM »
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Excuse me but it matters to me and it is of interest to me.  The way these people led their lives and how they felt matters to a lot of people.

RichC,

I didn't mean to say that it is not interesting, of course it is,  but what I meant was that since Ella didn't seem to do anything one way or another whatever her inclinations were then the way she led her life was the way we already knew she led it, so that's what I meant by "it doesn't matter".

Offline RichC

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2005, 04:55:32 PM »
Thank you.  I thought you were saying it isn't even worth looking into.

helenazar

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2005, 05:10:41 PM »
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Thank you.  I thought you were saying it isn't even worth looking into.
Oh no, of course I wasn't saying that! I am here to "chew the fat" about all that with the rest of you!  ;D

bluetoria

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2005, 05:31:44 PM »
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Perhaps she didn't feel any real attraction for Serge, who knows? Marie Pavlovna Jr writes that they shared the same bed but seemed curiously distant physically from each other. I don't think she was gay but perhaps the spiritual plane that she lived on after Serge's death was already germenating in her all along. Maybe she was of the personality that if she'd been raised Orthodox, she would've chosen to embrace the sisterhood rather than marriage.


I agree! But I think too that it doesn't mean she didn't have any feelings for Serge - had he turned out differently after their marriage (since I think she barely knew him before) she would have responded happily. Her spirituality, however, superceded everything else in her life and she responded to her circumstances as they happened.  

olga

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2005, 04:38:25 AM »
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Yeah, but no but...no...not Ella. I'm convinced.  :)


How can you be so sure? You just know?

bluetoria

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2005, 05:46:48 AM »
I can't really be so sure, it just seems extremely unlikely. First she's accused of having an affair with Nicholas of Greece, then, by the gossips at the time, with her brother-in-law, Pavel. Then Serge offers to find her a lover from one of his regiments...and she's accused of flirting too much with all the young officers...and now the possibility of her being gay...It just seems to have no foundation. So I'm convinced she wasn't...yeah, I just 'know' but without evidence :)