Author Topic: The Non-Hetero Royals  (Read 131249 times)

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Janet_W.

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2005, 07:01:54 PM »
I happen to believe that while we're each internally "wired" to prefer either heterosexual or homosexual experiences and relationships, there also exists, for each one of us, a matter of degree . . . influenced by, among other things, opportunity, or the lack thereof.

I don't really think of Dmitri as homosexual, but I wouldn't rule out that he had homosexual experiences, and most especially I don't rule out the possibility of a sexual relationship with Felix. These were two wealthy, jaded young men with a great deal of time on their hands who traveled in social circles which tended to tolerate, and in some instances promote, unconventional behavior.

From what I have read, Felix seems to have been a homosexual able to live within a very loosely constructed heterosexual existence. This existence included some early experiments with female dress, but should not be confused with the fact many heterosexual men who have no interest in homosexual activity do enjoy crossdressing.

Needless to say, individual sexuality is complex, and thankfully the days of thinking that those who don't fit into specific heterosexual boxes are mentally and/or morally unfit are, for the most part, over.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Janet_W. »

helenazar

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2005, 07:10:57 PM »
Janet, very well said.

Annie

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2005, 08:15:43 PM »
Quote
and (he's not a Royal, but I hadn't seen this before)

Dmitry Pavlovich Purishkevich (murdered Rasputin)
  
So, the three ringleaders of the Rasputin killing all had (or were rumored to have had relationships with other men)

Wow.


You have two guys mixed up. Dmitri Pavlovich Romanov WAS a royal, the son of the Tsar's young Uncle Paul. He was very close friends with Prince Felix Yussoupov and the two are rumored to have been gay lovers. They both were involved in the Rasputin murder at Yussoupov's house. Purishkevitch was a very unattractive middle aged man from the Duma. Dmitri was a very handsome young Grand Duke. Purishkevitch as far as I know was not gay. I'd post pics but my webpage went down today because I forgot to pay :'(

helenazar

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2005, 08:23:59 PM »
I think Purishkevich's name was Vladimir Mitrofanovich.

Annie

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2005, 08:53:03 PM »
Yes Helen I think you're right. I forgot to mention he was also involved in the Rasputin murder (for those unsure, I know you know!)

Helen, could you please post a pic of Dmitri and one of Purishkevitch if you have them?

Offline RichC

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2005, 12:48:07 AM »
Quote

You have two guys mixed up. Dmitri Pavlovich Romanov WAS a royal, the son of the Tsar's young Uncle Paul. He was very close friends with Prince Felix Yussoupov and the two are rumored to have been gay lovers. They both were involved in the Rasputin murder at Yussoupov's house. Purishkevitch was a very unattractive middle aged man from the Duma. Dmitri was a very handsome young Grand Duke. Purishkevitch as far as I know was not gay. I'd post pics but my webpage went down today because I forgot to pay :'(


Thanks for the info, Annie.  I just saw the name Purishkevich and copied and pasted it into my post.  I don't think being unattractive would necessarily preclude someone from being attracted to members of his/her own sex.  ;D    But it's clear that the claim about Purishkevich is wrong.

Here's the website I got it from if anybody's interested.

http://community.middlebury.edu/~moss/ROL.html

I will email Kevin Moss about the error.

Offline brnbg aka: liljones1968

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2005, 01:54:38 AM »
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Perhaps she didn't feel any real attraction for Serge, who knows? Marie Pavlovna Jr writes that they shared the same bed but seemed curiously distant physically from each other. I don't think she was gay but perhaps the spiritual plane that she lived on after Serge's death was already germenating in her all along. Maybe she was of the personality that if she'd been raised Orthodox, she would've chosen to embrace the sisterhood rather than marriage.




i firmly believe that Ella & Irina Aleksandrovna (Yusupova) had muc h in common with regards to their husbands.      

both men were obviously drawn to the beauties they eventually married, whatever their sexuality may have been.   personally speaking, i think both men were homosexual --- and they were both aware of it.     while Feliks tried to enjoy his sexuality inasmuch as he was able, given the time-period & culture; i'd hazard a guess that Serge (much like KR) lived with an almost unbearable guilt --- not being able to reconcile what he felt with what he'd been taught.    but while KR's turmoil was focused and used creatively (even if he didn't see it that way), Serge's inner demons surfaced as a cold reserve and harsh, overcompensation with those he came into contact with.

and, through whatever means, these same men managed to inspire a life-long devotion that both women would come to show.     Serge had the extraordinary good fortune to meet a woman who accept him as he was (even though she may not have fully understood what it meant, she almost certainly had to have known what was....she would certainly have had to deal with her brother's homosexuality to some extent --- but their younger sister, Alix, would not have been in the same situation where Ernie was concerned, having been the "baby" in the household.)  

anyway, i'd have to suggest that Serge was probably very...very, different when they were alone.    during their marriage, Ella didn't really demonstrate the religious piety & resignation that she would display in later life; which means, most likely, it was not religious conviction that bound her to him; nor could her faith instill that kind of devotion.    he was probably able to "open-up" to her like he could with no-one else.   in any event, both he and Feliks, undoubtedly, provided their wives with something[/b] the ladies found sufficiently satisfying to sustain them in their respective marriages.

i'd also suggest that, while no evidence exists, given the closeness between Ella & Feliks, once Irina entered the picture, whether spoken or unspoken, there must have been some type of commiseration between Ella & Irina....a sort of imperceptible understanding & empathy for the other's situation.




okay....
that's my 2-cents.   ;D
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Offline brnbg aka: liljones1968

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2005, 02:01:09 AM »
Quote
I happen to believe that while we're each internally "wired" to prefer either heterosexual or homosexual experiences and relationships, there also exists, for each one of us, a matter of degree . . . influenced by, among other things, opportunity, or the lack thereof.

I don't really think of Dmitri as homosexual, but I wouldn't rule out that he had homosexual experiences, and most especially I don't rule out the possibility of a sexual relationship with Felix. These were two wealthy, jaded young men with a great deal of time on their hands who traveled in social circles which tended to tolerate, and in some instances promote, unconventional behavior.

From what I have read, Felix seems to have been a homosexual able to live within a very loosely constructed heterosexual existence. This existence included some early experiments with female dress, but should not be confused with the fact many heterosexual men who have no interest in homosexual activity do enjoy crossdressing.

Needless to say, individual sexuality is complex, and thankfully the days of thinking that those who don't fit into specific heterosexual boxes are mentally and/or morally unfit are, for the most part, over.



i second Helen's comment:

                                           "very well said."


;)
"when i die, i hope i go like my grandfather --
peacefully in my sleep; not screaming & in terror,
like the passengers in his car."

-- anonymous
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bluetoria

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2005, 05:05:37 AM »
Quote



i firmly believe that Ella & Irina Aleksandrovna (Yusupova) had muc h in common with regards to their husbands.      

both men were obviously drawn to the beauties they eventually married, whatever their sexuality may have been.   personally speaking, i think both men were homosexual --- and they were both aware of it.     while Feliks tried to enjoy his sexuality inasmuch as he was able, given the time-period & culture; i'd hazard a guess that Serge (much like KR) lived with an almost unbearable guilt --- not being able to reconcile what he felt with what he'd been taught.    but while KR's turmoil was focused and used creatively (even if he didn't see it that way), Serge's inner demons surfaced as a cold reserve and harsh, overcompensation with those he came into contact with.

and, through whatever means, these same men managed to inspire a life-long devotion that both women would come to show.     Serge had the extraordinary good fortune to meet a woman who accept him as he was (even though she may not have fully understood what it meant, she almost certainly had to have known what was....she would certainly have had to deal with her brother's homosexuality to some extent --- but their younger sister, Alix, would not have been in the same situation where Ernie was concerned, having been the "baby" in the household.)  

anyway, i'd have to suggest that Serge was probably very...very, different when they were alone.    during their marriage, Ella didn't really demonstrate the religious piety & resignation that she would display in later life; which means, most likely, it was not religious conviction that bound her to him; nor could her faith instill that kind of devotion.    he was probably able to "open-up" to her like he could with no-one else.   in any event, both he and Feliks, undoubtedly, provided their wives with something[/b] the ladies found sufficiently satisfying to sustain them in their respective marriages.

i'd also suggest that, while no evidence exists, given the closeness between Ella & Feliks, once Irina entered the picture, whether spoken or unspoken, there must have been some type of commiseration between Ella & Irina....a sort of imperceptible understanding & empathy for the other's situation.




okay....
that's my 2-cents.   ;D


That's a really interesting idea about the empathy between Ella & Irina & a wonderful summing up of Serge & KR & I agree with you wholeheartedly.
I'm not sure Ella would have been familiar with Ernie's (presumed) homosexuality as he was still only a child when she left for Russia...Alix would have been in a better position to know of it and I believe she did claim somewhere that she knew more than most girls of her age.
I don't really agree about Ella's religious conviction only beginning later in life; she frequently writes that it had been something that had drawn her since childhood. I think, too, she had inherited her mother's strong commitment to duty & saw her duty as a wife (instilled in her no doubt by QV) to adhere to her marriage vows & support and obey her husband in everything. If he turned out something of a disappointment she had to grin & bear it...and love him anyway (at risk of generalizations - most women find gay men very easy to love!)
Your descriptions of Serge's inner demons & his response to them, are very convincing. It must have been extremely stressful for him - a pious man - struggling to overcome his own nature because it was viewed as sinful. KR's diaries are a litany of yielding & remorse & yielding & remorse. It must have been exhausting. No wonder Serge was so highly strung.
   

Annie

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2005, 06:38:10 AM »
Quote

Thanks for the info, Annie.  I just saw the name Purishkevich and copied and pasted it into my post.  I don't think being unattractive would necessarily preclude someone from being attracted to members of his/her own sex.  ;D    But it's clear that the claim about Purishkevich is wrong.

Here's the website I got it from if anybody's interested.

http://community.middlebury.edu/~moss/ROL.html

I will email Kevin Moss about the error.


Please do email him, I hate to see inaccuracies online because it misleads people who are trying to learn. The looks comment had nothing to do with them being or not being gay (though I assume most men, as most women, would prefer Dmitri's looks ;) ) it was just kind of funny to me to see them confused, the tall, handsome, beautiful young Grand Duke, and the short, fat, unattractive middle aged politician. I don't know how that happened, the guy who runs that site needs to straighten out his facts for historical reasons. What if a school kid got the wrong info and flunked a test or report? Thanks for helping.

More on Dmitri- He was born in 1891, the son of the Tsar's Uncle Paul, youngest brother of Alexander III, and his wife Alexandra of Greece (she was also half Russian) Alexandra fell in a boat and went into early labor, had Dmitri and then passed away. Because of this tragedy, he and sister Marie were raised partly by his Uncle Sergei and Aunt Ella (who as you know had no kids of their own) They also spent a lot of time with the IF and were very close to Nicholas and Alexandra. Later, when their father Paul remarried a divorcee, he was banished from Russia for several years and Ella and Sergei were given custody of both children.

It was at the neighboring country estates outside Moscow in the summertime that Dmitri and Felix met as children. They were always friends, and as young men became very close and spent a lot of time together, partying around town in St. Petersburg until dawn in the years before the war. At one time Dmitri was mentioned as a possible husband for Grand Duchess Olga, and Dmitri also had interest in Irina and when she chose Felix it caused a strain on their friendship. But they made up and were very close again by the time of the murder of Rasputin.

Though both survived the revolution, they fell out in the 1920's due to Felix's constant bragging and telling of the murder of Rasputin story, and Dmitri had hoped to keep it all quiet and never speak of it. What this means to what really may have happened that night we may never know.

In the book "Flight of the Romanovs", it states late in the book that there are wax figures of Felix and Dmitri in the rooms of the clubs on the Nevsky Prospect in St. Petersburg where they played their guitars and partied all night. It said they are regarded highly by the intellectual homosexual community of Russia as 'a glamorously romantic homosexual couple.' Any other details, whatever they may be, were not recorded so we can only speculate.

Purishkevitch, a Duma representative and not royal at all, also left his detailed account of the murder story, closely matching Felix and absolving Dmitri of all guilt ('thank goodness the young grand duke's hands are not stained with the blood of the peasant') Some say this was because Dmitri did have a larger role than admitted, and there was at the time a faction who wanted to install Dmitri as Tsar if Nicholas fell and did not want the murder on his rep.

Purishkevitch fled St. Petersburg the night of the murder. He died in 1920 of Typhus, or was it Typhoid?

Dmitri, banished to the Persian front for his role in the Rasputin murder, ironically escaped the revolution because of his exile! He later married an American heiress, Audrey- Emery, and had a son, Paul. They divorced in the late 30's. Dmitri died of TB in 1941 in Switzerland. Audrey took the boy to America where he grew up to become Mayor of Palm Beach, Fl. , often joked as the "Tsar of Palm Beach" due to his royal roots. He passed away just last year at age 75.

Yussoupov, as you probably know, escaped on the HMS Marlborough with the Dowager Empress and others, settled in France, wrote his memoirs and lived a long life. He died in 1967 at age 80.

helenazar

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2005, 08:04:47 AM »
Annie, you forgot to mention that Dmitri also had a hot and heavy affair with Coco Chanel!  ;)

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2005, 09:16:01 AM »
I don't know if this is really true and please correct me if it's not, but could it be part of the pattern that gay men (or those inclined that way if bisexual) are attracted to extremely beautiful women? And if so, could that be part of what was mentioned above? It brings to mind the relationship of Montgomery Clift and Elizabeth Taylor (and Rock Hudson and Elizabeth Taylor and I'm sure other gay men and ET). She was certainly one of the most beautiful women in Hollywood and she had an intensely loving yet platonic relationship with these men. It seems to be a theme with many of the men we discuss: Serge & Ella, Felix & Irina (and Dmitri & Irina), Ernie & Ducky (I don't see it but she was mentioned at the time as one of the loveliest princesses in Europe), Dmitri & Coco Chanel (who seems very attractive to me based on the photo of her).
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bluetoria

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2005, 10:30:25 AM »
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I don't know if this is really true and please correct me if it's not, but could it be part of the pattern that gay men (or those inclined that way if bisexual) are attracted to extremely beautiful women? And if so, could that be part of what was mentioned above? It brings to mind the relationship of Montgomery Clift and Elizabeth Taylor (and Rock Hudson and Elizabeth Taylor and I'm sure other gay men and ET). She was certainly one of the most beautiful women in Hollywood and she had an intensely loving yet platonic relationship with these men. It seems to be a theme with many of the men we discuss: Serge & Ella, Felix & Irina (and Dmitri & Irina), Ernie & Ducky (I don't see it but she was mentioned at the time as one of the loveliest princesses in Europe), Dmitri & Coco Chanel (who seems very attractive to me based on the photo of her).


That's an interesting point. 'Gay icons' are always very beautiful women (of judged by some to be beautiful) aren't they....Diana, Princess of Wales was one here.

Offline RichC

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2005, 01:14:05 PM »
Ok, a few comments.  Was Serge really so pius?  Karlinsky writes in "Hidden From History" that he was openly homosexual and that he openly attended the theatre with his male lover.  

Also, being a gay man myself, I disagree that "most women find gay men easy to love."  Some women, definitely, but not most.  I also believe there are quite a few gay men who would not be interested in having deep, personal friendships with women.  Gay men are not all sweet, empathetic creatures, alas!  While I think (from personal experience) that a woman and a gay man can develop a deep personal friendship that's very different from what a straight man can develop with a woman (I'm talking non-sexual relationships between men and women), I don't think it's all that common.

Someone mentioned the movie Delovely on another thread, about Cole Porter and his marriage to a wealthy American woman.  I thought that movie was heartbreakingly sad -- what she went through!  If that's what Irina, Ella and Ducky had to go through, they're all saints.  

Who knows why Irina married Felix?  He must have been very charming and she so young and inexperienced.  He knew that N and A wouldn't give him the time of day so he had no chance with one of their daughters, so Irina was the next best thing.  I wonder if he just saw her as another pretty object to decorate one of his palaces with...

I guess I'm not a big fan of Felix.  

Ducky, from what I can gather was pressured to marry Ernie by Queen Victoria.  I wonder if Alix held it against her for leaving Ernie...

bluetoria

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Re: The Non-Hetero Royals
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2005, 01:47:59 PM »
RichC, my comment about women finding gay men easy to love was probably rather foolish. It's as general as saying women find men easy to love...depends on the man & the woman! (I juts happen to like very much the gay men that I know - and so too do all my female friends, so presumably we just happen to know gay men that we get on with.)
I agree that Ducky was pretty much forced into the marriage but, unlike Ella & Irina she openly discredited Ernie, didn't she?
Serge's piety may be in doubt, but he was nevertheless known to have studied his religion very carefully & even discussed some finer points of theology with the Pope. He may not have lived up to his own ideals. I've heard that he openly went to theatre with his lover - do you have any idea whether this was before or after his marriage & who was the lover? (If indeed, he WAS his lover & it wasn't just more gossip.)