The Non-Hetero Royals

[Robert_Hall]

Kinsey's famous formulae was one in six. Current posits are as high as 10 percent of the general population, some even higher, but a lot of factors are involved in such calculations.
 As for Charles...well, the story about being caught en flagrante with his male staff member was presented by a sadly discreditable  witness who is now dead. There is no way to prove or disprove it, as the supposed "eveidence" dissapeared with Diana's death as well.
 However, he is also to have supposedly had schoolboy "adventures" with his mates which is not at all uncommon in those upper echelon private [public in England] schools. I would just consider that schoolboy playing, not an indication on his actual sexuality. Most likely happens everywhere.

[helenazar]

Kinsey's famous formulae was one in six. Current posits are as high as 10 percent of the general population, some even higher, but a lot of factors are involved in such calculations.
 

Yeah, that sounds like a more realistic number... For royals too :-)

[dmitri]

My only concern with this thread is some are quick to label those without any evidence to substantiate their claim. Certainly I have seen nothing at all that would suggest that Alfred, reigining Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha was anything but blatantly heterosexual. Apart from his marriage he had numerous affairs with women.

[dolgoruky18]

For those for whom the information I posted about Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh and Saxe-Coburg has come as a shock and are in denial, I can only say that I was given this information while in the then West Germany in the 1970s. I cannot help it if other posters are made uncomfortable or distressed. That they choose not to believe it is, I'm afraid, a matter of indifference to me. Perhaps their own research can prove it incorrect. In such a case, if proved, I would certainly admit its validity. Anecdotal evidence has its place in historical studies  -  and this was an anecdote I thought well worth sharing on this thread.

The big story while I was in Coburg, was the (I think) sixth marriage of Princess Caroline of Saxe-Coburg to a plasterer. I recall that a law had recently been passed in West Germany enabling spouses to adopt the surnames of either the husband or wife. There was much speculation then as to whether or not the plasterer could take the name "von Sachsen-Coburg". Incidentally, the princess also made a formal request to Queen Elizabeth for permission to marry. This was because of the Royal Marriages Act passed in the reign of George III which restricted all descendants of King George II in their choice of marriage partners. Buckingham Palace was surprised by the request, but the Queen acknowledged it and apparently gave the required permission although expressing the view that it was not necessary.

There are several unusual ramifications to this still valid Royal Marriages Act which are most interesting, but which are not relevant to this thread.

HRH Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester, as the senior British descendant in the male line of Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg, Queen Victoria's husband, has often been invited to Coburg by the local authorities to unveil memorials etc. The connection remains to this day.

[Grace]

For those for whom the information I posted about Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh and Saxe-Coburg has come as a shock and are in denial, I can only say that I was given this information while in the then West Germany in the 1970s. I cannot help it if other posters are made uncomfortable or distressed. That they choose not to believe it is, I'm afraid, a matter of indifference to me. Perhaps their own research can prove it incorrect. In such a case, if proved, I would certainly admit its validity. Anecdotal evidence has its place in historical studies  -  and this was an anecdote I thought well worth sharing on this thread.

Dolgoruky, I didn't mean to imply that I disbelieve your story about Alfred Snr. owning a collection of moulded men's bits - just that that in itself without any other known evidence isn't sufficient in my opinion to be able to label Alfred as being homosexual.

[dolgoruky18]

Well, Grace, you have point  -  and in itself the story does not indicate homosexual leanings on the Duke's part. The context and tone in which the information was given to me by the curator did, however, imply it. I was so amazed to hear the story, that I failed to ask further questions. The local historian went rather further about Prince Alfred of Saxe-Coburg without my asking, but firmly discouraged questions about Duke Alfred, his father.

I have no idea of the present-day condition of the Ehrenburg Palace. When I visited it was in deep winter and the place was freezing cold and desolate. What most fascinated me, I remember, was Queen Victoria's personal lavatory cabinet  -  an object which was a cross between a wardrobe and an old policeman's kiosk as seen in "Doctor Who". Being dissatisfied with sanitary conditions on previous visits to Coburg, she apparently brought it with her from England for the wedding of Ernest of Hesse-Darmstadt in 1892  -  the same occasion on which Nicholas of Russia became engaged to Alix of Hesse-Darmstadt. I suppose I should be ashamed to admit it, but I asked to sit down on the seat and the door to be closed for a moment. No, I didn't at all feel like Queen Victoria, but the experience was worth having all the same.

Why Victoria left the closet behind is anyone's guess. Maybe she intended to return some day.

[YaBB_Jose]

The big story while I was in Coburg, was the (I think) sixth marriage of Princess Caroline of Saxe-Coburg to a plasterer.

Which Pss. Caroline is that ?
I could not trace any that was married 5 times before ...

[dolgoruky18]

I haven't the faintest idea, I'm afraid. You are welcome to dig as deep as you wish. I would be interested to know if my fragmentary memory of this is at fault. I disliked my stay in Coburg intensely  -  partly because of the ferocious insult I received in my hotel by an old waiter. The expression he used was unknown to me, so I innocently asked my work colleagues about it the following day. The reaction was dramatic. They instantly drove me to the hotel, blasted the manager and removed me bag and baggage to another hotel. Apart from this, the weather was, as I have said, bitterly cold. I was lonely, isolated and had to travel back to Munich every weekend. Not a pleasant train journey, I can assure you.

One final memory: standing on a hill overlooking the border with the DDR. My companion told me mournfully of the minefield which lay below and the number of bodies he had seen, either shot or blown up, over the years since the War. I have never forgotten that sight and its snow-covered desolation.

[Robert_Hall]

I have checked every gay/homosexual history and volume I have, and that is a considerable number, BTW,   and not one mention of Coburg, Alfred or otherwise nor his collection of penises. If it did, in fact exsist, I think it would indicate an interestst in male genetalia for certain. I tend to doubt it, though.  He was not very popular in Coburg  when he assumed the ducal throne,  so there well could be some long left-over resentment towards him, leading to slanderous gossip.
 The only Caroline Coburg  with multiple marriages I found was Caroline Mathilde [1912-1983] who married at least 3 times.
 However, now I am more intrigued by what the hotel man said!

[dolgoruky18]

To Robert Hall:

Thank you for the post. I'm SO glad that you found Caroline Mathilde and her mere three marriages, If you can confirm anything else I've written, I'll be grateful. If not, oh well... The World will carry on spinning. I knew I'd be jumped on by the outraged  -  but it happened and the words about Duke Alfred were said.

You expressed an interest in what the waiter said. Well, you must remember that Coburg was  -  and maybe still is  -  part of Bavaria. My German was of the schoolboy, tourist phrase variety and I did not follow his Bavarian dialect. But I saw the look which went with the remark and the body language. I was curious and. as I said, next day tried to reproduce the words for my colleagues. For some time they refused to translate but, just before I finished my assignment in Coburg, I was invited to dinner by one of my colleagues and his wife. Actually, the reason for the invitation was a little story in itself. I had first met the wife at a farewell cocktail party at my (second) hotel. On being introduced I immediately called her "Frau XXX". There was a sudden silence, people studied their wine glasses or the floor  -  and the lady's eyes filled with tears. No-one enlightened me as to what was obviously a 'faux pas' on my part. At the end of the party, the husband quietly invited me to dinner the following evening. It transpired that the lady was not his wife, that they were living together with his children and hers and that his embittered legal wife was refusing him a divorce and financially taking him to the cleaners. Coburg was, it appeared, scandalised and they had lost most of their friends. My greeting her formally with a name she was not entitled to, but desperately wanted, had led to the scene I have described and the dinner invitation. It was a quite undeserved "Thank you" to me.

Well, my host and I stayed up into the early hours and got obscenely drunk. During the burbling conversation I begged him for the translation. I must now be careful. The waiter apparently said: "You f.......g Englishman. You're in Germany. Speak German, you c...."

I have no doubt that the waiter had his own memories of WW II  -  much closer in time then than it is now. I still hope he didn't lose his job. I never found out. Small towns in Germany  -  much like small towns anywhere, I suppose.

[Robert_Hall]

You are quite welcome, Dolgoruky.  If someone is documented as gay/homosexual I most likely have it  in my library.  I have  a rather extensive library of homosexual/gay history and bios. I also collaborated with a  rather well known author for a work of his own. Our goal was 1,000 gay men in history. Sadly, it was never realised due to his ill health and others followed up with their own volumes. We did get about 2/3rds finished, never quite knew what to do with Tallulah Bankhead though.
 As for obscure German princesses who marry a lot,  Marlene or Arturo would be the likliest  resource for them.  They know their German royals backwards and forwards.

[dolgoruky18]

Dear Robert  - NO-ONE EVER knew what to do with Tallulah ! The stories about her are legion and according to one biographer  -  I think it was a lady called Lee Israel  -  she didn't fit into any definite category known to psychology. I made the brief acquaintance of Anthony de Bosdari's great-nephew in the 70s (he became equally briefly engaged to a friend of mine) and he shuddered when I asked if he was related.

[dmitri]

well your trip sounds a long time ago as the GDR hasn't been in existence for a very long time

[Robert_Hall]

Not that long, for some of us Dmitry. The wall went  down on my birthday. 1989. Almost 20 years, what a world of change.
 I was in London watching it happen. Incredible experience.
 But back to  non-hetero- royals.  Tallulah stories are indeed legend.   She supposedly   made a pass at the future Queen Mother whilst on stage in London, circa 1920 or so.
And she had a fair share of royal caddies. That was Tallulah.

[dmitri]

smile Robert .. fancy the two of us being in London at the same time .. small world!! I was in East and West Berlin in December 1989 so I remember the GDR when it was still in operation but disintegrating .. they were interesting years .. as for Tallulah!!! .. poor Queen Mother!!!