The Non-Hetero Royals

[helenazar]

Even if Ella didn't think she endured anything, she must have at least known (how could she not!!) that living a celibate (presumed again) marriage was not the norm and surely wouldn't have expected anyone else to 'endure' it.  

 

The power of denial can be very strong in the human mind. Stranger things have happened, I'm sure...  

[felix]

Have you read "Foxy Ferdinand ? I  dont remember who wrote  it   Its a good biography of  him.. Ferdinand of Bulgaria   F.

[bluetoria]

 

The power of denial can be very strong in the human mind. Stranger things have happened, I'm sure...  

:-/ :-/ :-/ Hum, hum...need to think about this! Better go and do something useful while I'm thinking!

[grandduchessella]

 

The power of denial can be very strong in the human mind. Stranger things have happened, I'm sure...  

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, you know.  

I've heard conflicting stories about Wilhelm of Sweden but positive gay rumors about his father Gustav V of Sweden who apparently had several close male 'friends'. Who knows? I had never heard about Carol I of Romania. 'Foxy Ferdy' those were pretty legendary.

[RichC]

Perhaps we should just make a list of the straight royals, instead, to save space!!  

[helenazar]

Perhaps we should just make a list of the straight royals, instead, to save space!!  

 

[bluetoria]

 

The power of denial can be very strong in the human mind. Stranger things have happened, I'm sure...  

This is my theory (which I've just concocted during Mass when I should have been listening to the sermon - oops, sorry, God )!
1. IF Serge was gay - as much of the evidence seems to suggest, despite doubts about some of the sources - Ella would not have known that before they married & probably not for quite some time afterwards. Even if the marriage remained unconsummated she may not have suspected he was gay and I THINK he probably would have not been actively gay at least when they were first married, as he was probably trying to fight it (seeing it as sinful etc.)
2. Ella's subsequent over-protestations of happiness rather 'give her away.' 'The lady doth protesteth too much' * as QV wrote of her, when people are really happy they don't need to keep telling everyone that they are.  I think she was profoundly disappointed not only in Serge but in the 'terrible lies' (or truths) that were being spoken everywhere.
3. Her denials are understandable - it must have been excruciatingly embarrassing for her BUT I think her denials were for the public & not for herself. She made the best of it & became more absorbed in religion (which had always been central to her life - & she may well have been happy to become a nun instead of marrying had she been raised in a different faith & class.)
4. IF William was gay, Ella couldn't expect Maria to live as she had done (the humiliation, gossip etc.) so she didn't know about it.
5. Maria was very prone to self-pity & I do not give full credence to all she writes (primarily because her descriptions of Ella conflict with so many other children's - Felix, Anna Vyrubova (who later had no reason to like Ella yet still praised her care for children) Marie of Edinburgh & her mother etc. etc.)
6. If Maria wanted a convenient excuse to escape from an unhappy marriage, Ella & Serge gave her a good idea for an excuse.
7. BUT if it were true, it would explain why Ella was so very very sorry for her when she went to visit her in Sweden before the divorce & why they afterwards grew much closer.

Oh bother! I'm being summoned to the pub!
Well, that's my theory for what it's worth

[felix]

Rich, you started this,  Whats the problem ? Lets  keep in going.

[RichC]

Well, I read the Karlinsky article in the monograph "Hidden From History" titled "Russia's Gay Literature and Culture: The Impact of the October Revolution" and he hypothesizes that although there were strict laws against same sex sex in Tsarist Russia they were not enforced in part because so many powerful individuals in the ruling class were "gay".  He sites an example, among others, where Prince Vladimir Meshchersky, a "gay" novelist and publisher, and friend of the last three Tsars, was discovered on the palace grounds having sex with a soldier of the guard.  Tsar Alexander III ordered the charges dropped and the witnesses silenced.  He also says that 7 of the grand dukes at this time were "gay" and that Serge was the most "flamboyant" of the bunch.  

This all got me thinking, why was Serge made governor of Moscow.  Was it necessary to send him away from Petersburg without it being seen as punishment?

Does anyone know if Serge left a diary?

[Greg_King]

Well, I read the Karlinsky article in the monograph "Hidden From History" titled "Russia's Gay Literature and Culture: The Impact of the October Revolution" and he hypothesizes that although there were strict laws against same sex sex in Tsarist Russia they were not enforced in part because so many powerful individuals in the ruling class were "gay".  He sites an example, among others, where Prince Vladimir Meshchersky, a "gay" novelist and publisher, and friend of the last three Tsars, was discovered on the palace grounds having sex with a soldier of the guard.  Tsar Alexander III ordered the charges dropped and the witnesses silenced.  He also says that 7 of the grand dukes at this time were "gay" and that Serge was the most "flamboyant" of the bunch.  

This all got me thinking, why was Serge made governor of Moscow.  Was it necessary to send him away from Petersburg without it being seen as punishment?

Does anyone know if Serge left a diary?

I suspect Serge was sent to Moscow not as punishment (in which case, a posting as a provincial Governor-General would have made more sense, in effect putting him as far away from populated centers as possible) but because Alexander III knew he shared his same ruthless views on upholding the autocracy, and could depend on him to crush any rebellions.

A few years ago, Zoia Belyakova told me that Ella had burned Serge's diaries after his death; I don't know if this included everything, or just those from 1884-1905.

Greg King

[bluetoria]

Yes, after he died she seemed to be going round desperately sorting throug his 'papers' not only at the Governor's house, but in Ilinskoe & all their homes...there must have been something she wanted to hide.

[Martyn]

Utterly fascinating.  Can't believe I've missed all this.  Bluetoria not concentrating at Mass because she is trying to fathom out Ella's approach to her husband's sexuality.....How many 'Hail Marys' will that cost you?
And where have I been all my life?  Foxy Ferdy a gay?  Was he the only gay in Bulgaria, to appropriate a Little Britain catchphrase?  I've been to Bulgaria and there still isn't much action, so I can't imagine what it must have been like back then!
Nicholas Mikhailovich - 'Uncle Bimbo', another gay?!  Are we allowed to use this word BTW or do we risk excommunication for post modern revisionism?  Just asking! Perhaps that is the key to his nickname, after all; nothing to do with Italian, he was effeminate and short on brains!  Shan't ask if he was a blond....Sorted.
Can't wait for more additions to the list - keep 'em coming!

[Martyn]

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, you know.  

 'Foxy Ferdy' those were pretty legendary.

Gets me every time that one. ROTFLMAO!  Do share about Foxy Ferdy - I'll bet he was glad of those German officers..........

[grandduchessella]

Yes, after he died she seemed to be going round desperately sorting throug his 'papers' not only at the Governor's house, but in Ilinskoe & all their homes...there must have been something she wanted to hide.

Oh, Ella, Ella, how could you?    I wonder if she herself kept a diary and if so, if she destroyed it when she entered the convent? I never wonder about these things for prurient reasons but the history lost, argh. KR's diaries, while sometimes you feel like you're intruding on a man's private thoughts, gives so much insight to his character and an understanding of not only his own struggles but a bit of a view on the culture of the time.

PS I'll dig around for some of my 'Foxy Ferdy' info Martyn. Is it the nickname that gets you or the quote?

[helenazar]

A few years ago, Zoia Belyakova told me that Ella had burned Serge's diaries after his death; I don't know if this included everything, or just those from 1884-1905.

Oh what a shame! Do you think it was because there were some "unsavory" things in it that Ella did not want known? Or else why would she do that? I can understand when they burned diaries when they thought that they would fall into some "undesirable" hands during the revolution, but this was long before the revolution!