Discussions about Russian History > Russian Noble Families
Lopukhin-Demidov
rpalmgre:
--- Quote from: Превед on July 25, 2015, 04:40:22 PM ---Interesting how this family seems to have been caught up in the current Russian succession quarrel:
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It would be interesting to know why Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia do not acknowledge the Lopukhin-Demidov family of the House of Demidov. I have been thinking about writing to her office and ask why this is the case. What do you think? I do not see any reason for not accepting the legitimizy of The 4th Prince Lopukhin-Demidov.
I recommend a look at the genealogies of Lopukhin-Demidov at An Online Gotha by Paul Theroff: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/demidov.html I have sent him corrections about the present family and the parents of The 4th Prince Lopukhin-Demidov.
--- Quote from: Превед on July 25, 2015, 04:40:22 PM ---The Princes Lopukhin are listed as extant, although there never were any standard Princes Lopukhin before the elevation of one line to Most Serene Princes. They were just boyars / nobles and other lines continued to flourish as such, also after the extinction of the agnatic Serene Princes. One of them remained in Russia after the Revolution: Oleg Mikhailovich Lopukhin (1924 - 1993) was a Captain in the Soviet Navy and Head of Arkhangelsk Naval College untill 1985. From 1992 he was a Full member of the Russian Nobility Assembly. His son, "Prince" Vadim Olegovich, with a background in Soviet medicine, is apparantly a leading member of the Russian Nobility Association since 1990 and a close collaborator of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, acting as "Chief Coordinator of the All-Highest Visits to Russia".
Since this line of the Lopukhins never was princely, it must have been GD MV who has granted him the title he sports and is credited with in various press releases connected to GD MV. Was her reasoning perhaps that since the Princes Demidov of San Donato are extinct in the male line since 1943, the Demidovs in Finland can now revert to being merely Princes Demidov? And that remaining untitled Lopukhins can be raised to the princely rank?
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The Russian Princely House of Lopukhin became extinct when His Serene Highness Prince Paul Petrovitch Lopukhin died without legitimate issue in 1873. The title Prince Lopukhin was then handed over to the family Demidov in accordance to primogeniture as Prince Lopukhin-Demidov and the qualification "Serene Highness" by Imperial Ukase 21 January 1876.
The 3rd Prince Lopukhin-Demidov died in New Hampshire 28 September 1995. The office of Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia do not know or ignores that his younger brother Aleksander Demidoff had a son Yrjö ONNI Johannes Demidoff in Helsinki on 23 April 1936. He is the present Prince Lopukhin-Demidov. I seek especially a picture of him so if anyone has a picture then please forward it to me. We are distantly related to each other. Thank you!
When The 3rd Prince Lopukhin-Demidov died in 1995 Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia created a new Prince Lopukhin. I do not give much credit to that as she is not a reigning monarch.
rpalmgre:
--- Quote from: Превед on July 25, 2015, 05:05:58 PM ---the Lopukhin name is a quite ordinary Russian plant-based surname, derived from лопух / lopukh - burdock or arctium.
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Can the surname Lopukhin mean an Oak? The 2nd Prince Lopukhin-Demidov had a son Pjotr Demidov in Saint Petersburg on 31 August 1916. He changed his surname to the Finnish surname Tammipuu. His issue are surnamned Tammipuu. Observe that the surname is written Tammipuu and not Tammipoo as can be seen at An Online Gotha by Paul Theroff: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/demidov.html Tammipuu is a Finnish word. In a direct translation to Finnish it is "Oak Tree". It would be interesting because then they use the Russian surname Lopukhin in a Finnish translation and not the surname Demidoff as the Princely family of Lopukhin-Demidov do.
Превед:
--- Quote from: rpalmgre on July 29, 2015, 02:43:57 PM ---It would be interesting to know why Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia do not acknowledge the Lopukhin-Demidov family of the House of Demidov. I have been thinking about writing to her office and ask why this is the case. What do you think? I do not see any reason for not accepting the legitimizy of The 4th Prince Lopukhin-Demidov.
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I agree. You should write her, it will be interesting to know.
When researching the matter I came across some site denouncing the Lopukhin-Demidovs as "having deserted Russia", i.e. moved to Finland. (It said ridiculous things like they now had "unpronounceable Finnish names", i.e. Yrjö?) May it have something to do with participation on the Finnish side in WW2, i.e. fighting against Soviet Russia as an ally of Nazi Germany? If so, I don't think GD Maria as a Vladimirovichi should be the first to cast stones....
--- Quote ---When The 3rd Prince Lopukhin-Demidov died in 1995 Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia created a new Prince Lopukhin. I do not give much credit to that as she is not a reigning monarch.
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I can see how GD MV, if she was desperate to reward some important Russian backer called Lopukhin (whether of the noble Lopukhins I can't say for sure) might have made up some phony reasoning about how transferring a princely title via a cognatic line was "a breach with old Russian custom", especially when there still are noble Lopukhins around and the senior line of the Demidov princely family itself is extinct, and the junior Demidovs thus have their own agnatic title to carry.
--- Quote ---Can the surname Lopukhin mean an Oak? The 2nd Prince Lopukhin-Demidov had a son Pjotr Demidov in Saint Petersburg on 31 August 1916. He changed his surname to the Finnish surname Tammipuu. His issue are surnamned Tammipuu. Observe that the surname is written Tammipuu and not Tammipoo as can be seen at An Online Gotha by Paul Theroff: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/demidov.html Tammipuu is a Finnish word. In a direct translation to Finnish it is "Oak Tree". It would be interesting because then they use the Russian surname Lopukhin in a Finnish translation and not the surname Demidoff as the Princely family of Lopukhin-Demidov do.
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No, oak is дуб, dub, in Russian. I'd rather think Tammipuu was chosen because it sounds somewhat similar to Demidov.
BTW I was recently in Finland and it took a little time before I understood that the monolingual signs for Tammisaari were for Ekenäs. :-)
rpalmgre:
--- Quote from: Превед on July 29, 2015, 03:32:15 PM ---I agree. You should write her, it will be interesting to know.
When researching the matter I came across some site denouncing the Lopukhin-Demidovs as "having deserted Russia", i.e. moved to Finland. (It said ridiculous things like they now had "unpronounceable Finnish names", i.e. Yrjö?) May it have something to do with participation on the Finnish side in WW2, i.e. fighting against Soviet Russia as an ally of Nazi Germany? If so, I don't think GD Maria as a Vladimirovichi should be the first to cast stones....
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Where did you read that? Yrjö is the Finnish form for George. I think it does not really matter what Grand Duchess MARIA of Russia think because she is not the Head of the Imperial House of Russia in my opinion.
--- Quote from: Превед on July 29, 2015, 03:32:15 PM ---the senior line of the Demidov princely family itself is extinct, and the junior Demidovs thus have their own agnatic title to carry.
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What do you mean?
--- Quote from: Превед on July 29, 2015, 03:32:15 PM ---I'd rather think Tammipuu was chosen because it sounds somewhat similar to Demidov.
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I am skeptical to that idea because to me Tammipuu and Demidoff do not sound the same in Finnish.
--- Quote from: Превед on July 29, 2015, 03:32:15 PM ---I was recently in Finland
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Great. Were do you otherwise live? How did you enjoy Finland? :)
Превед:
--- Quote from: rpalmgre on July 30, 2015, 02:16:07 PM ---
--- Quote from: Превед on July 29, 2015, 03:32:15 PM ---I agree. You should write her, it will be interesting to know.
When researching the matter I came across some site denouncing the Lopukhin-Demidovs as "having deserted Russia", i.e. moved to Finland. (It said ridiculous things like they now had "unpronounceable Finnish names", i.e. Yrjö?) May it have something to do with participation on the Finnish side in WW2, i.e. fighting against Soviet Russia as an ally of Nazi Germany? If so, I don't think GD Maria as a Vladimirovichi should be the first to cast stones....
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Where did you read that?
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It was on some Russian site, which I translated with Google Translate, but now I can't find it again.
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--- Quote from: Превед on July 29, 2015, 03:32:15 PM ---the senior line of the Demidov princely family itself is extinct, and the junior Demidovs thus have their own agnatic title to carry.
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What do you mean?
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The agnatic line of the Demidov Princes of San Donato went extinct with the death of the 4th Prince in 1943. I'm not sure if this means that the Counts Demidovs also are extinct.
--- Quote ---I am skeptical to that idea because to me Tammipuu and Demidoff do not sound the same in Finnish.
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I just meant they sound similar, not the same.
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--- Quote from: Превед on July 29, 2015, 03:32:15 PM ---I was recently in Finland
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Great. Were do you otherwise live? How did you enjoy Finland? :)
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I live in Norway. I had visited Helsingfors before, but now, on a road trip around the Baltic, we took the ferry from Tallinn to Helsingfors, drove to Åbo and took the ferry from Nådendal to Stockholm. I like Finland very much, particularly the bilingual aspect (very convenient for a Scandinavian to be able to communicate in Swedish with everybody in southwestern Finland and at the same time enjoying the pleasure of a totally different, exotic language!) but it was a shame that all the rural hotels in the countryside were closed during the weekend, so we could not stay at Svartå or Fiskars manors. But the (trailer) ferry from Nådendal to Sweden was a real cruise!
BTW I had imagined that coastal Nyland and Åboland would look like very open farmland, with much deciduous forest, so I was quite surprised that it looked so..... Finnish, very sparsely populated and with huge fir and spruce forests. :-) I had also always imagined that the Moomins were products of Tove Jansson's imagination, but when I saw the Finns (from the interior?) on holiday in Nådendal at breakfast I realized that the Moomins are a loving caricature of Finns - especially those broad snouts! It was also real fun being in Estonia and understanding quite a bit of the language in the forms of signs etc. due to my knowledge of Finnish. And I agree with the Finns that Estonian is just cute, like a childish version of Finnish!
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