King Friedrich August III of Saxony, his family and descendants

[grandduchessella]

Prince Albert of Saxony stated the following:

It can however be said that Crown Prince Georg was in fact murdered, as it has been clearly established that he hid Jews from persecution by the Nazis during his time in Berlin.  As the I (Prince Albert) have learned from several interviews, it can be assumed that the SS had a part in his death.Arturo Beéche

Thank you--Arturo. That is the information I was wondering about when I said 'enigmatic'. Just wanted to get a handle on where the information and flesh the details out.    You always drop us these delicious little tidbits that leave us going and....?   There is such a lack of information out there about George--is Prince Albert, as family historian, planning any writing on such a topic?

Also, it would seem, if all the information is true, that there would be good grounds for some sort of Vatican recognition.

[kmerov]

Its always about the money! Lets hope there is plenty of them at least!

And yes, they should recognise Georg and others who riskt their own lives to save innocent people!

[Eurohistory]

Thank you--Arturo. That is the information I was wondering about when I said 'enigmatic'. Just wanted to get a handle on where the information and flesh the details out.    You always drop us these delicious little tidbits that leave us going and....?   There is such a lack of information out there about George--is Prince Albert, as family historian, planning any writing on such a topic?

Also, it would seem, if all the information is true, that there would be good grounds for some sort of Vatican recognition.

Well if I give all the details, what's the insentive then for people to subscribe to my magazine then?  Although I can think of many benefits suibscribers get, from quality of material to illustrations!

A little tease goes a long way!  

Arturo Beéche

[cimbrio]

Hello y'all! I'd like to learn more about the Kings of Saxony, related to the reigning royal families of Belgium, Great Britain, Portugal and Bulgaria, and through the female line to probably all other old royal families of Europe.As far as I can see from genealogical trees I've found, the Kings of Saxony were also Kings of Poland in the person of Frederick Augustus II (1670-1733) and his son Augustus III (1696-1763);  the latter was succeeded by his eldest son Frederick Christian, but from I can see, he died the same year as his father (three months later) and was only styled "Kurfurst" (why's that?). Frederick Christian was succeeded by his childless son FRederick Augustus, who was followed by his brother Anton I (r. 1827-1836). However, he only had daughters and a son, all of which died before their father, so the throne should have reverted to his surviving brother Maximilian. Nevertheless, the throne passed to the latter's eldest son, Frederick Augustus (r.1836-1854), but sinc ehe had no issue, he was succeeded by his brother Johann I (r. 1854-1873). His wife Amalia, of the house of Bavaria, gave him several children, the eldest of which became King of Saxony in 1873, and remained so till his death in 1902, when he was succeeded by his brother Georg, who died two years later. His son, the last King of Saxony, was Frederick Augustus III (1865-1932). His eldest son renounced his rights to become a priest in 1923; the second married a Princess of Thurn und Taxis and had a few children. The eldest, Emanuel, is married to Anastasia-Luise of Anhalt but they have no children, so the next in line would be his brother, were he not married to a commoner. Next would come the descendants of Prince Ernst Friedrich, son of Frederick Augustus III, but only his second son ever got married, and it was to commoners, so I suspect his descendants are ruled out of the line sof succession.
So, in view that there are no male members of the Royal House of Saxony that are descended from equal marriages, who will have the rights of succession once Emanuel of Saxony dies?
Plus, any info on their spouses, including the deceased Queens of Saxony? Why did this branch remain or turn Catholic while the other branches of the Wettin family converted to Protestantism?

[bell_the_cat]

Hi Cimbrio!

I live in Saxony! The Library where I sometimes work in Leipzig is called the Albertinum after King Albert.

However there's very little information about the monarchs here. In fact most people are only dimly aware that there even were kings of Saxony, and are surprised to learn that there was one as recently as 1918. If you mention one of the kings people look at you as if you've said something very peculiar!

The dynasty was increasingly unpopular in the nineteenth century. The Catholicism of the ruling house (the people were mostly protestants) may have been a factor. I think it was Augustus II who converted and this may have had something to do with his ambitions for the Polish crown.

The personal union with Poland was never a success. The partners were too different. The Wettiner persisted in this dream however, even after Poland had ceased to exist. It was one of the reasons Frederick Augustus I supported Napoleon, which led to an embarassing and bloody defeat at the Battle of Leipzig in 1813, followed by the loss of half of Saxony's territory.

Frederick Augustus III lobbied the Kaiser to be given the Polish Crown in 1918 after the Brest Litovsk treaty!

[Linnea]

I maybe wrong, but won´t Prince Alexander of Saxony, son of Roberto Afif, Prince of Gessaphe and Princess Maria Anna of Saxony, granddaughter of the last king of Saxony, be the next head of the family? He is married to Princess Gisela (that name !) of Bavaria and has three sons and one daughter.

[Wettin]

Thanks Cimbrio for your "surfing safary" intro to this new thread. And what are we to do with the already existing thread "Re: Queens of Saxony"? Why make this board even more confusing? And Linnea didn´t you learn from the old Romans never to discuss matters of taste. If you put aside dislikes of a name perhaps the Lord will do to you as he says in your citation of psalm 91. To the real interesting question: Why has Maria Emanuel, ( both names please, Cimbrio) Margrave of Meissen, the present head of the Royal House of Wettin adopted his nephew Alexander  von SACHSEN GESSAPHE as his heir and this with the written  consent of his younger brother Albert and his  cousins Dedo and Gero? Because his eldest cousin Timo was mariied thrice morganatically ( the third time his wife was actually also married for her third time). In Timo´s first morganatic marriage to Margrit Lucas, daughter of master butcher Carl Lucas and his wife Hildegard Stube he had a son Rüdiger and a daughter Iris. (Rüdiger is by the way advertising for a new wife). What about King Georg´s Younger sons? Johann Georg was married twice but childless. Next, Maximilian who was ordained a priest in 1896 and thus no offspring.  Next Albert who was killed in an accident at a military maneuver at Wolkau in 1900. Thus no male offspring and when Maria Emanuel dies the albertinian line of the Royal House of Wettin will be extinct.
And bell_the_cat: I don´t know for how long you´ve worked at a library. I´m myself a librarian. Take the train or car to Dresden, walk over Carolabrücke (how come that name still after 44 years of GDR-time?). Borrow the book "Das alte Dresden" by Fritz Löffler with hundreds of photos from before the bombings in February 1945. Ask yourself the question why this book was THE bestseller on the black market in GDR.  

[Linnea]

Why not with Friedrich August III. and his wife Luisa (although she never became queen)? I´m very interested in this pair.

[Marlene]

Are you sure Albert agreed to Max Emanuel's adoption of their nephew.   This adoption would not have happened if another nephew  Prince Johannes of Saxe Coburg and Gotha, who died in a mountain climbing accident, I believe.    Johannes was the designated heir.

Timo barely knew his two kids - he spent a lot of time in hospitals - and his two children were raised by maternal relatives.  I corresponded with Dedo and Gero (the latter now deceased), and Timo's second wife - and  none barely knew Timo's kids

Thanks Cimbrio for your "surfing safary" intro to this new thread. And what are we to do with the already existing thread "Re: Queens of Saxony"? Why make this board even more confusing? And Linnea didn´t you learn from the old Romans never to discuss matters of taste. If you put aside dislikes of a name perhaps the Lord will do to you as he says in your citation of psalm 91. To the real interesting question: Why has Maria Emanuel, ( both names please, Cimbrio) Margrave of Meissen, the present head of the Royal House of Wettin adopted his nephew Alexander  von SACHSEN GESSAPHE as his heir and this with the written  consent of his younger brother Albert and his  cousins Dedo and Gero? Because his eldest cousin Timo was mariied thrice morganatically ( the third time his wife was actually also married for her third time). In Timo´s first morganatic marriage to Margrit Lucas, daughter of master butcher Carl Lucas and his wife Hildegard Stube he had a son Rüdiger and a daughter Iris. (Rüdiger is by the way advertising for a new wife). What about King Georg´s Younger sons? Johann Georg was married twice but childless. Next, Maximilian who was ordained a priest in 1896 and thus no offspring.  Next Albert who was killed in an accident at a military maneuver at Wolkau in 1900. Thus no male offspring and when Maria Emanuel dies the albertinian line of the Royal House of Wettin will be extinct.
And bell_the_cat: I don´t know for how long you´ve worked at a library. I´m myself a librarian. Take the train or car to Dresden, walk over Carolabrücke (how come that name still after 44 years of GDR-time?). Borrow the book "Das alte Dresden" by Fritz Löffler with hundreds of photos from before the bombings in February 1945. Ask yourself the question why this book was THE bestseller on the black market in GDR.  

[Wettin]

I agree with you Marlene that the adoption of Alexander hadn´t taken place if Prince Johannes hadn´t died in an accidence. Johannes was the son of Maria Emanuel´s (not Max, I agree,  it´s difficult but very catholic with a man called Maria ) sister princess Mathilde who was married to prince Johannes Heinrich of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. The adoption of Alexander, son of ME:s other sister princess Maria Anna, in May 1999  by Maria Emanuel was according to my knowledge approved by ME:s younger brother Albert and ME:s cousins Dedo and Gero.
Who is to blame that ME:s cousin Timo hardly knew his  two kids? I think not ME.They were born in a morganatic marriage and I interpret the word morganatic as a union between a royal and a non-royal person which is against the so called house rules and/or against the will of the head of the family, in this case Friedrich Christian, Margrave of Meissen, the father of ME. The two kids´ mother died in 1957 and they were raised by her relatives.
In a way I think this feud over titles is just "academic". Correct me if I´m wrong but in the Federal Republic of Germany there are no royal titles anymore. They are just part of the surname. If I wished to, and the authorities would allow it, I could change my surname to "vom Walde und zu Hause". The real fight is over the controll of the family funds "Haus Wettin eV" founded in 1924 or what´s left of it after WWII, with new contributions in shape of the Moritzburg treasure, sold at Sotheby´s London in 1999 for almost  GBP.2.3 million, the deal with the Federal Republic of Germany in 1999 over about 12,000 objects for about DEM 24 million, the claims for August the Strong´s table silver and other objects  taken by the red army´s invasion in February 1945.

[Marlene]

It is of course academic, but for royal genealogists, such as my self, one does differentiate between someone who has the title as a surname and one who is an actual recognized member of the family.  Legally, both have the same surname, but for tradition and inheritance, there is a difference.  Titles are not recognized in law, but in Germany, certainly in social and even government circles ...

Timo had mental health issues .. he was also not adverse to selling his name - which he did during his third marriage, adopting an adult male, who is now known as Hermann Prinz von Sachsen.

I agree with you Marlene that the adoption of Alexander hadn´t taken place if Prince Johannes hadn´t died in an accidence. Johannes was the son of Maria Emanuel´s (not Max, I agree,  it´s difficult but very catholic with a man called Maria ) sister princess Mathilde who was married to prince Johannes Heinrich of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. The adoption of Alexander, son of ME:s other sister princess Maria Anna, in May 1999  by Maria Emanuel was according to my knowledge approved by ME:s younger brother Albert and ME:s cousins Dedo and Gero.
Who is to blame that ME:s cousin Timo hardly knew his  two kids? I think not ME.They were born in a morganatic marriage and I interpret the word morganatic as a union between a royal and a non-royal person which is against the so called house rules and/or against the will of the head of the family, in this case Friedrich Christian, Margrave of Meissen, the father of ME. The two kids´ mother died in 1957 and they were raised by her relatives.
In a way I think this feud over titles is just "academic". Correct me if I´m wrong but in the Federal Republic of Germany there are no royal titles anymore. They are just part of the surname. If I wished to, and the authorities would allow it, I could change my surname to "vom Walde und zu Hause". The real fight is over the controll of the family funds "Haus Wettin eV" founded in 1924 or what´s left of it after WWII, with new contributions in shape of the Moritzburg treasure, sold at Sotheby´s London in 1999 for almost  GBP.2.3 million, the deal with the Federal Republic of Germany in 1999 over about 12,000 objects for about DEM 24 million, the claims for August the Strong´s table silver and other objects  taken by the red army´s invasion in February 1945.

[Prince_Lieven]

You consider adoption 'selling' one's name, Marlene?

[Marlene]

You consider adoption 'selling' one's name, Marlene?

When an adult pays another adult to be adopted, yes, that is selling one's name.  I am not talking about the adoption of children, but the practice of adopting an adult - he gets your titled surname and you get money.

The late Princess Marie Auguste of Anhalt adopted a number of people, including Robert Lichtenberg, who became Frederic Prinz von Anhalt  (and married Zsa Zsa Gabor).  Her grandson, Franz Friedrich, in the 1990s, adopted one Gert Friedrich Janssen, who became Gert Friedrich Prinz von Preussen.  There are various Saxe-Altenburgs (an extinct line) and Sayn Wittgensteins floating around too - none of whom are members of the family but were adopted, and now have royal surnames.

[Wettin]

Marlene I understand that the adoptions can cause a lot of trouble to you royal genealogist. Perhaps I take the matter to lightheartedly but I´m only royal. And yes, Marlene, " titles are not recognized in law, but in Germany, certainly in social and even government circles ... ". I myself find it a bit sickening because Í never had a chance to choose my parents and I want to be known for my own merits. If titles hadn´t been recognized socially there wouldn´t have been a market for selling them. And Lieven, oh sorry I forgot the Prince_thing,  the adoption of Alexander "is to ease the transition of an inheritance or something" namely Haus Wettin eV. I´m sure most of the Family Wettin considers the Albertine Line extinct when Maria Emanuel, Margrave of Meissen, Duke of Saxony is deceased. I think the goal of the adoption is to get a sort of continuos  working presence in Saxony and for Saxony. I think that´s also the reason why Alexander with family lives in Dresden. All the time in exile the Royal House of Wettin through many of its able members has worked for keeping the traditions of Saxony alive.

[cimbrio]

Prince Georg of Saxony (1893-1943) gave up his succession rights to become a Jesuit priest in 1923. During WWII he helped conceal Jews, and was consequently murdered by the Nazis.