Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky, Others

[helenazar]

Was there other damage you are referring to?

I think Abby may have been referring to the bullet holes in the walls and the floor, and, I think, they did find some remnants of blood there (?). Not sure what else they found there, as I believe that Yurovsky's team did try to cover up what happened there initially....

[Abby]

Oops, I haven't been following up on this thread. Yes, Helen, that's what I meant, the original bullet holes, which are counted in "Fate of the Romanovs" as being significantly less than some books have counted...I forget exactly the number. And Sokolov's report says that they found some blood that was not cleaned up, and there were bayonet scratches and dents on the floors.

[AGRBear]

This was a member of the Cheka, G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."

Where can we find more of Sukhorukov's testimony of 3 April 1928.

AGRBear

[Elisabeth]

Bear, if you're really serious about researching this topic, you need to read Veniamin Alekseyev's book, The Final Act of the Tragedy. There you will find Sukhorukov's 1928 recollections of the exhumation of the imperial family from the Ganina mineshaft and their second burial in Pig's Meadow, along with the recollections of participants in the murders and those of other witnesses. It's a book consisting entirely of primary sources, an invaluable aid in reconstructing the events of July 16-19, 1918.

[AGRBear]

I do have a copy promised me when my friend gets time to copy it for me, however, there are many posters who, like I, do not have a copy.

For those of us who do not have this data, could you enlighten us, please?

AGRBear

[Elisabeth]

Unfortunately, I only have the Russian edition of Alekseyev's book, and I don't particularly feel like translating Sukhorukov's testimony into English, especially since it's already been discussed at some length in "The Missing Bodies" thread. I guess you'll just have to wait until you get the book, Bear, unless someone else wants to oblige.

What's most interesting to me about Sukhorukov's recollections is that he names 22 men, not including himself, who were present for the exhumation of the imperial family and their servants from the mineshaft at the Four Brothers during the early morning hours of July 18. That's a lot of witnesses to the fact that all 11 bodies were still present a full 24 hours after the murders. No bodies were missing; Sukhorukov not only describes Alexei's body but also specifically names Alexei and his youngest sister Anastasia as the victims who were burned and buried together separately from the others in Pig's Meadow on the following morning, July 19, 1918.

[AGRBear]

Sukhorukov's name isn't in any of my  books accept one.  He's mentioned in King and Wilson's THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS p. 464 and I quote:  "....he made other claims, unsupported by the evidence, that undermine his crediblity and ultimately cast doubt on his veracity as a witness."

Why do you think his testimony should be held as supported evidence of what happen?

Does the book tell us when he became a part of the "group" which dealt with the bodies of the IF?

AGRBear

PS:  Found this by Elisabeth:

Sukhorukov was the witness who claimed in his 1928 reminiscences (in honor of the 10th Anniversary of the murders) that Alexei and Anastasia were the victims who were burned and then buried separately from the others. He was not one of the killers at the Ipatiev House, but apparently was one of those men called in to help dispose of the bodies on July 19, 1918. His testimony is available in Veniamin Alekseev's The Destruction of the Imperial Family, or as I believe it's been translated into English, The Last Act of the Tragedy.  

[Penny_Wilson]

Sukhorukov's statement (NOT my translation):

April 3, 1928
…Having been in Kusvinsky works for several days, we received orders to go to Ekaterinburg … From the remainder of our battalion about thirty-five men were selected for a detachment with the Ural Regional Cheka, where I was also enlisted.  Several days later, on July 18-19, about twelve men (including me) were selected and told, “Comrades! A secret of state importance is entrusted to you.  You must die with it. If somebody does not justify our confidence, woe to him!”  Fyodor Lukiyanov (if I do not confuse the surname), the Ural Regional Cheka Chairman said, “Today we must go to bury Nicholas Romanov’s family.  They have been shot.”  At night we drove to the Verkh-Isetsky works in carriages.  I do not remember exactly how many people were there, but I do remember many of them. 1. Yurovsky, the town commissar. 2. Our commissar Pavlushin. Gorin and Rodzinsky from the Cheka; I do not remember the surname of a Magyar in a grey suit which he later burned with sulphuric acid; Yermakov. From the Red Guards were my countrymen Fyodor Tyagunov who was killed on the Deniken Front; Aleks. Bozhenov, Nikolai Vladimirovich Pospelov, his brother Ivan (they seem to be in Perm now), Nikolai Samoilov (he studies to become a Red professor in Moscow), Mikhail Veselkov (he works at the Sverdlovsk GPU).  All of them were workers from Lysva.  An Estonian Kyut was subsequently a commander of a machine-gun platoon in my detachment and was taken prisoner by Kolchak along with the machine-gun unit.  Kilzin, also an Estonian, was also commander of a machine-gun section in my detachment, and he was killed serving at Novopainsk in the Okhansky district.  Dimitry Ponomarov, a Lysva worker, and Guryev – both were also taken prisoner.  Workers from Verkhne-Turinsk were Petrov, Alek. Ryabkov – Ryabkov’s sister is working in the Regional Workers Peasants Inspection now, it seems. (Probably she has her husband’s surname now).  Yasha, I forgot his surname. Ryabkova and I know him.

In the morning, we arrived at the mines where the corpses were. Near the mine there were ashes without fire.  The boys began to root in the ground assuming the Tsar’s clothes had been burned there.  Some found a lot.  For example, Pospelov found two big diamonds set in platinum.  Sunegin found a diamond ring, and so on.

The time went by.  The work was urgent.  It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses.  Mounted and unmounted patrols were set up everywhere and the work began.  Vladimir Sunegin was the first who went down with a rope in his hand.  At first, we began to extract the firewood, whole logs.  Then the work got tedious, and we decided to take the corpses out directly.  I came down to help Sunegin and the first thing we came across was a leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others.  To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers.  After the removal, the bodies were put near the mines and covered with tents.  We began to discuss what to do with them.  At first, we decided to dig a pit right on the road, do the burial and level the ground again.  But the soil turned out to be stony, and the job was abandoned.  We decided to wait for the cars, and drive the cargo to the Verkh-Isetsky pond.

In the evening the trucks came.  The corpses were loaded onto carts.  We transferred them from the carts into the trucks again and left.  Not far was something like a bridge made of ties, and the last truck to pass over got stuck.  All our efforts (to move the truck) were unsuccessful.  We decided to remove the ties, dig the pit, put the corpses into it, pour sulphuric acid over [the bodies], fill in the pit and replace the ties.  All was done in such a way that if the White Guards found the corpses, they could not guess from the number that it was the royal family.  We decided to burn two corpses on the fire and did so.  For our “sacrificial altar” we got the last heir.  The second body was the youngest daughter Anastasia.  After the corpses were burned, we scattered the ashes, dug a pit in the centre, shoveled in all the unburned remainders, made a fire again on the same spot and finished the work.

We arrived in Ekaterinburg on the second day, tired and angry.  That night I left as commander of an escort to accompany to the Perm Cheka Elena, daughter of the Serbian King and wife of one of the Grand Dukes.  With her was the Serbian Mission, Colonel Medichee, his lackey and about twenty representatives of the Sverdlovsk bourgeoisie.  I delivered all of that illustrious gathering successfully.  Having arrived in Perm, I got the newspaper Uralskii Rabochii (it seems to be from July 22) and read about the execution of Nicholas II and his family…

Sukhorukov.
DCSOSR Fond 41, Op. 1, Doc. 149, L 215, 219-221.  Russian Original.

[AGRBear]

Thanks Penny.

According to Greg King and Penny Wilson:  "Although Sukhorukov was undoubtedly at the Four Brothers mine on the morning of July 18, and assisted in the initial work, he was almost certainly dismissed, as one of Ermakov's friends, on Yurovsky's arrival, only to return later that night, after the exhumation was completed."  pps. 464-5.  "In the end, only Yurovsky  and perhaps Sukhorukov witnesssed what took place in Pig's Meadow on the morning of July 19."

Since it was impossible to burn the two bodies to ashes of any kind with the kind of wood fire they had used, neither of these men [Sukhorukov or Yurovsky] are telling us what really happen, therefore, I don't think they were  telling the truth in this part of their testimonies.

AGRBear

[Elisabeth]

Thanks Penny.

According to Greg King and Penny Wilson:  "Although Sukhorukov was undoubtedly at the Four Brothers mine on the morning of July 18, and assisted in the initial work, he was almost certainly dismissed, as one of Ermakov's friends, on Yurovsky's arrival, only to return later that night, after the exhumation was completed."  pps. 464-5.  "In the end, only Yurovsky  and perhaps Sukhorukov witnesssed what took place in Pig's Meadow on the morning of July 19."

Since it was impossible to burn the two bodies to ashes, neither of these men [Sukhorukov or Yurovsky] are telling us what really happen, therefore, they were not telling the truth in this part of their testimonies.



AGRBear

Bear, we've been over this again and again on the "Missing Bodies" thread. You're muddling the evidence.

Yurovsky never claimed that they buried "ashes" in the second grave. Where are you getting this? He wrote in his 1920 Note that they burned two corpses and then buried the "remains" (REMAINS, not ashes) "under the fire and lit the fire again" to cover up traces of the digging.  In his 1934 Note Yurovsky wrote that what was left after burning the two bodies were "bones," which were then buried. Nowhere does he claim that the bodies were successfully cremated.

Sukhorukov says the same thing. The human remains from the fire were buried beneath the fire and another fire was lit to cover up traces of the digging.

As for King and Wilson's conclusion that Sukhorukov was dismissed by Yurovsky before the exhumation was completed on July 18 - there's a major problem with that, insofar as at least one other witness supports Sukhorukov's description of the corpses laid out on the grass that morning. The FA mentioned this on the "Missing Bodies" thread (I forget where - but at least one other witness confirmed Sukhorukov's claim that Alexei's body was clad in a sailor's shirt). There are other indications, too, that Sukhorukov was present for the duration of events from July 18-19.

Please read Alekseyev's book before you start making these mistaken conclusions.

[AGRBear]

Sukhorukov testimony: "...After the corpses were burned, we scattered the ashes, dug a pit in the centre, shoveled in all the unburned remainders..."

When a body is burned, the skin is charred and just the fat is melted away.  There would be no ashes only bodies with blacken crust around muscle, tissue and bone.   And, it would take more than "shoveling in" because the bodies would still be intact and they'd have to be picked up and placed in a grave.  A task no human would forget, at least in my opinion.

I'll have to go back and read what Yurovsky wrote.  Be back.

Yurovsky's 1920 testimony: "We wanted to burn A. and A.F., but by mistake the lady-in-waiting Demidova was burnt with A. instead.  We then immediatly buried the remains under the fire and lit the fire, again."

Yurovsky 1934:  ""We dug a pit by the spot where they were burned, piled in the bones...." in a grave.

Yurovky did not mention "ashes" either time.

Elisabeth is right but not completely.   I think I am right that neither men could have "shoveled in the bodies" nor "piled in the bones" of Alexei and Anastasia/Maria.

Yurovsky first statement of just saying "remains" would probably be more accurate, if that is what occured.

I forget who it was or on what thread it was, but there was a very good explantion of how a body burns  and  that the temperature has to be quite high, which is more than a simple wood fire  would have been made in so few short hours, therefore it would have been impossible  to have burn more than the skin and fatty tissue layer of the body.

There was no mention of acid being used, so, these bodies would probably be more intact than those of the mass grave even though they were burned according to these two men.

AGRBear

PS  See my post #26 which I should have read first before mentioning "ashes" being uttered by Yurovsky  

[AGRBear]

...[in part]...

As for King and Wilson's conclusion that Sukhorukov was dismissed by Yurovsky before the exhumation was completed on July 18 - there's a major problem with that, insofar as at least one other witness supports Sukhorukov's description of the corpses laid out on the grass that morning. The FA mentioned this on the "Missing Bodies" thread (I forget where - but at least one other witness confirmed Sukhorukov's claim that Alexei's body was clad in a sailor's shirt). There are other indications, too, that Sukhorukov was present for the duration of events from July 18-19.

Please read Alekseyev's book before you start making these mistaken conclusions.
 

Yep, sometimes we make mistakes but hopefully we correct our errors and continue.

And, yes, we discussed some of this on another thread, however, this thread is just about testimonies.

Who were these other eye witnesses who talked about Alexei and how the bodies were position on the grass?

Somewhere I remember that Yurovsky sent all Ermakov's men away.  I'll go find that....

If I had Alekseyev's book,  I'd gladly  read it, but I don't have it nor do I think many do AND I don't think many will since it's impossible to find and or buy.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Yurovsky - 1934:  "The people that Yermakov had gathered weren't at all right for this sort of job, and there were so many of them, too.  I decided that the people had to gotten rid of."  The following words stated where he sent Yermakov's men.

Yurovsky - Night of 17 July 1920:  "The comm. immediately decided to dismiss the whole group, leaving on guard a few men on horseback and five from the detachement.  The rest dispersed.  The detachement began to undress and burn the corpses."  This was at the Four Brother's Mine and not in Pig's Meadow.

None of  nine skeletons found in the mass grave showed signs of having been subjected to burning.

It sounds as if Yurovsky kept his men and rid the area of Yermakov/ Ermakov's men in 1934 and in 1920 kept 5 men of the detachement  and a few men on horseback so were these Ermakov's men.

And, again, the nine skeletons were not burned at the Four Brothers Mine nor in Pig's Meadow.  And, no, he didn't mention ashes at the Four Brother's mind, either.

AGRBear

[Elisabeth]

Sukhorukov wasn't one of Ermakov's men, Bear. He was called in with other men from the Kusvinsky factory shortly after midnight on July 18, 1918 - not the 17th, the 18th. We're talking about a totally different group of men who exhumed the bodies from the mineshaft on the morning of the 18th. Most of Ermakov's men were long gone by then.

Whether or not Sukhorukov was present when all of the bodies had been pulled out of the mineshaft and/or when the second burial in Pig's Meadow occurred are debatable points, according to King and Wilson. I simply disagree with their conclusion that he was not present because I don't see any inconsistencies in his testimony that would rule him out as a reliable eyewitness. In fact he repeats exactly what Yurovsky said on a number of points and even gets the identities of the burned bodies correct.

As for the ashes controversy, any bonfire you build is going to produce some ashes. What did you build the bonfire with? Wood? Isn't it going to burn and produce ashes? Burnt skin turns to ash, too. There would certainly be more than enough material to "shovel" into a pit. For that matter, I sincerely doubt they wanted to touch the burned bodies with their own hands.

Yurovsky's testimony is by and large very consistent. True, there are slight discrepancies between his 1920 and 1934 statements. In some places he makes obvious mistakes (as in the 1920 statement when he says "the detachment began to undress and burn the corpses" when from the context you can see that what he clearly meant to say was that "the detachment began to undress the corpses and burn the clothing"). But this is typical of any eyewitness statement and does not detract from the overall truth of that statement.

If you are really interested in working out an accurate timeline of events, then I suggest you do what I did: take both Yurovsky's statements and work out the timelines for each on separate sheets of paper. Then write out the entire timeline given in Greg and Penny's book - which is taken from all the witness statements and is astonishingly detailed (you will have pages and pages of notes - the amount of research they did still astounds me). Compare this timeline with Yurovsky's timelines. See how closely everything fits. Amazing!

[AGRBear]

I don't have time today to go into the various time lines of Yurovsky, Ermakov and this Sukhorukov.

Since Sukhorukov is a new twist for me then I'll have to adjust my thoughts and think about these timelines all over, again.

My first problem about Sukhorukov would be, is he mentioned by anyone being there other than himself?

AGRBear