Pig's Meadows Grave Questions

[AGRBear]

Without using any testimonies of Yurovsky and the other executioners or buriel crew,  what evidence can you give me that proves the following  nine peoples' bones were  found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow?

The nine people are:
1 Anna Demidova
2. Dr. Evgeny Botkin
3 GD Olga
4. ex-Tsar Nicholas II
5. GD Marie
6. GD Tatiana
7. ex-Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexei Trupp



Let's me start with number one, #1-Anna Demidova.

Does the DNA match someone in her family?  If so, who? If no family can be found to show a match what other evidence can we use?   Are the bones the right height for Demidova?  And, please,  tell your sources in your posts.

Added to this can be other questions.  For example:  Using the common diagram seen above, in what order do you think the bodies were placed in the grave?

Perhaps you'd like to know why the diagram shows just five skulls.  Are some hidden still in the ground or have they already been removed or they are shown but it's difficult to find in the drawing?

Thanks.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Thanks Penny.

Bob Atchison recently interviewed Captain Peter Sarandinaki of the group SEARCH (Scientific Expedition to Account for the Romanov Children).  We are honored to bring you this interview.

Take a look at the interview, which includes recent data about Pig's Meadow and the search for bones of the missing, � found on the following URL:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=QAInterviews;action=display;num=1107186918

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Since some of you do not have Peter Kurth's books, � the following URL will take you to his site which talks about the bones and grave found in Pig's Meadow near Ekaterinburg.

http://www.peterkurth.com/ROMANOV%20BONES.htm

There are some additional photographs which may, also, interest you.

Also, � it should be noted that Peter Kurth continues to believe that Anna Anderson was G D Anastasia.


According to the USA scientists,  they believe the one missing daughter from this grave is Anastasia because the other three daughters of Nicholas II bones show maturity which Anastasia's bones would not have shown due to her young age.  The Russian scientists have issued a report in which they think the missing bones are Maria's.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

On Kurth's site he talks about how Dr. Koryakova  found the condition of the bones and  the removeal of the bones from the grave site:

""We had only one big digging machine," Koryakova complains, "some military trucks, several spades.”  There were fences and klieg lights around the pit, and the most bizarre company of helpers on the job  “two of everything," Koryakova told the Sunday Times, "just like Noah's ark:  two police colonels, two detectives laden with cameras and video equipment, two forensic experts, two epidemiologists, the town procurator and his secretary, and two policemen with submachine guns.”  Everyone took a shovel and dug:  the colonels, the detectives, the procurator, and Alexander Avdonin, a local geologist who worked with Ryabov during the first excavation, in the 70s, and now heads an organization in Ekaterinburg calledObretenie -- the word translates loosely as "recovery," and has religious overtones.  The announced goal of Obretenie is "to restore the morality of Russian history.” 

[moonlight_tsarina]

I have always wondered..what if this was just a mass grave of 9 random people, which could explain the other two missing people, but i most surely hope i am wrong!

[AGRBear]

I think this quote should be repeated on this thread:

We can absolutely know quite a bit about what happened to the bodies from the physical forensic evidence. To answer your points:

1.The bones found in the grave showed no signs of chop marks.  Such bones as there were, were in reasonably articulated positions, with no suggestion of disarticulated limbs jumbled together.  Just look at the diagram that Bear has posted elsewhere.

The burned that occured was only the sort of burning (etching) that can be attributed to acid.  No evidence of charring from a fire was found on any of the bones.

2. There are two heads missing from the grave -- those of Alexei and Anastasia.  The rest of their bones are missing too.  In addition, only Kharitonov's skull-cap is extant, so I suppose you could say the lower part of his head is missing too.

3.They did have acid all over them -- see accounts of etched bones and earth so saturated in acid that it had a distinctive bluish tinge.

4.It's impossible to tell from the bones if any were raped.  Draw your own conclusions about the events on the Rus.

5. None of the nine bodies/skeletons in the grave was exposed to fire.  We don't have the remains of Alexei and Anastasia to be able to determine what happened to them.

6.There were many "relics" found at the site on the Koptyaki Road, both in 1918 and in recent years.  Several books list these relics consistently.

7.There is thus far no evidence extant of any murder except the one that occurred in the Ipatiev House basement.

The best way of determining what happened is through one's own research.  If you can't physically go to Ekaterinburg and other places to access original evidence and documents, then you're pretty much stuck with relying on what is in the published domain.

AGRBear

[Denise]

I have always wondered..what if this was just a mass grave of 9 random people, which could explain the other two missing people, but i most surely hope i am wrong!

No worries--you are wrong!!  DNA has shown that the three young females are the children of one of the older women--who (by DNA) is a descendent of Queen Victoria.  Paternity tests have shown that the father is in the grave, who is genetically related to the Romanovs.  So it is definite that we have the Romanovs in the grave, barring Alexei, and 1 of his sisters.

[moonlight_tsarina]

No worries--you are wrong!!  DNA has shown that the three young females are the children of one of the older women--who (by DNA) is a descendent of Queen Victoria.  Paternity tests have shown that the father is in the grave, who is genetically related to the Romanovs.  So it is definite that we have the Romanovs in the grave, barring Alexei, and 1 of his sisters.

Phew, I'm glad...lol

But i have a real question, im not being snide..

from Penny_Wilson:

4.It's impossible to tell from the bones if any were raped.  Draw your own conclusions about the events on the Rus.

How is it possible to find evidence on bones over 80 years old of rape?  

I watch my share of law & order SVU,(lol) so i know a little bit about this stuff,  so can't that only be told if there is still flesh etc. to find brusies and the like?  

[Denise]

How is it possible to find evidence on bones over 80 years old of rape?  

It isn't--that is what Penny said--it is impossible.  She was responding to some things that Annie had listed, things she had heard had happened to the Imperial family.  One of those things was that members of the family had been raped.  (there is another thread discussing this very issue)

Don't let it bother you.  There are a lot of threads to keep track of!
Denise

[AGRBear]

Another thread that talks about the bones:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102885418

So many threads are losing site of what's already been debated.....

In Yurovsky's 1920 testimony he tells us:

p. 358:
"Meanwhile, the dawn came (this was already the third day, the 18th). � The thought was to bury some of the corpses right then and there by the mine. � We began to dig a pit and almost finished digging it out. � But just then a peasant acquaintance of Yermakov's drove up, and it turned out he been able to see the pit. � That effort had to be abandoned."

"Around 4:30 in the morning of the 19th , one of the vehicles got completely stuck."

p. 356: "...it was necessary to either bury or burn the corpses. But one comrade, whose last name the comm. has forgotten, promised to take the latter upon himself but left without carrying out his promise."

So, someone didn't burn the corpses as promised. � He left. � Wonder which one he was. � Why didn't he finish his work? � Where did he go? � And, does this fact change Yurovsky's statement in 1934?

Anyway Yurovsky talks about the burning of the two bodies:

"We wanted to burn A. and A.F. but by mistake the lady-in-waiting Demidova was burnt with A. instead. � We then immedately buried the remains under the fire and lit the fire again, which completely covered up traces of the diggings"

This appears to give us the idea that the two bodies were buried next to or very near the mass grave.

"Meanwhile, we dug a common grave for the rest."

Quotes are found in Steinberg and Khrustalev's THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS.

Yurovsky and his men made two errors.  The body was not Alexandra's nor was it Demidova's but one of the daughters, either Anastasia or Maria's.

Most of Pig's Meadow has been dug up but so far no sign of two human skeletons belonging to the two missing children of Nicholas II have been found.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Oh, dear, all that valuable information from Penny is absent here, too.


AGRBear

[AGRBear]

There was some discussion by Dr Maples that the arm bones attributed to Nicholas by the Russians were too long for his body.  I believe he said that had those arms been his, in life his fingertips would have brushed his knees almost.  Although those bones were buried with Nicholas as his arms, I think the general conclusion among the American forensic specialists was that the arms actually belonged to the servant Trupp, who was tall enough to have possessed them.

The conspiracy theory is obvious...  

Thought this was really interesting.

If the scientists thought arm bone was too long to be Nicholas II's then why did they leave it in Nicholas II's skeleton figuration?

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

http://www.tzar.orthodoxy.ru/ost/exp/photos.htm

Pictures of the skulls.

http://www.tzar.orthodoxy.ru/ost/exp/photos.htm

[helenazar]

[AGRBear]

Could you tell us, please,  the person to whom each skull belongs?

Thanks.

AGRBear