Pig's Meadows Grave Questions

[Forum Admin]

I doubt Yurovsky and his men would have gone to the same lengths to dispose of a small dog's body as they did with the humans.  It seems to me that just dropping the dead dog somewhere out in the forest for the wolves and other carrion eaters to dispose of would have sufficed. People would have been looking for the Emperor, not a little dog...

[AGRBear]

My error:

Jemmy was the Japanese Chin
Joy was the Springer Spaniel
Ortino was the French Bulldog.

[AGRBear]

I doubt Yurovsky and his men would have gone to the same lengths to dispose of a small dog's body as they did with the humans.  It seems to me that just dropping the dead dog somewhere out in the forest for the wolves and other carrion eaters to dispose of would have sufficed. People would have been looking for the Emperor, not a little dog...

Your doubts may or may not be correct. 

If you are,  then I would guess that the dog's body was left where they removed the bodies with the help of Ermkov's men from the truck the first time....

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Correction.

 There was a dog by the name of Jimmy, which  was a Japense Chin.  However, it was
Jemmy, who was with the Royal Family in Ekaterinburg  and was a King Charles Spaniel

Sorry for the confusion.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Another map of the Ekaterinburg area, from a book published in the 1920's:




I'm not sure how old these photos of Ekaterinburg are, but they should give you a feeling for the area immediately surrounding the Ipatiev house:



Ekaterinburg was a well-established industrial mining area supplying gold, iron, and 90% of the world's platinum in the 1900's, so I would presume the city and its factories were quite built up. At the time of the revolution it was Russia's 5th largest city, with a population of over 100,000. I'm not sure how closely the forest encroached on the town in 1918, though. Helen Rappaport refers to it as a "powerful regional city" and a place "of strategic and industrial importance" in her latest book, Ekaterinburg: The Last Days of the Romanovs. It had hotels, a theater, an opera house, a museum, electric street lights and tramways, seven foreign consulates, and a number of imposing homes. The area was prominent enough that Nicholas was already well aware of the local Red politics when he arrived there in 1918.

[AGRBear]

I doubt Yurovsky and his men would have gone to the same lengths to dispose of a small dog's body as they did with the humans.  It seems to me that just dropping the dead dog somewhere out in the forest for the wolves and other carrion eaters to dispose of would have sufficed. People would have been looking for the Emperor, not a little dog...

If I took a guess,  I'd say the dog's body would have been taken off the truck the same time as the others were the first time and no one bothered to pick the dog's body up and the men and the human bodies in the carts went off to the Four Brother's Mine.

See THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS by Steinberg and Khrustalev  pps.  351-356 which has Yurovsky's 1920 statement:

>>>>Around 3 o'clock in the morning, we departed for the place tha Ye-v was to have prepared (beyond the Upper Isetsk factory). First it was assumed that they [the corpses] would be brought by car and then, beginning at a certain point, on horseback, since the car could go no further. The place selected was an abandoned mine. After driving a little more than 3 miles past the Upper Isetk factory, we bumped into a whole encampment -- about 25 people-- on horseback, in light, horse-drawn carts, etc. There were workers (members of the soviet, of the Executive Committee, etc.) whom Ye-v had prepared. The first thing they exclaimed was: "Why didn't you bring them to us alive?!" they thought the Romanovs' execution would be entrusted to them. They began to load the corpses into the light carts, but wagons were needed. This was very inconvenient. They immediately began to clean out [the corpses'] pockets -- it was necessary to theaten them with being shot and to post sentries here as well. Then it was discovered that Tatiana, Olga and Anastasia were dressed in some kind of special corsets. It was decided to strip the corses bare, but not here, only at the place of burial. But it turned out that no one knew where the mine was that had been selected for this purpose.  <<

AGRBear

[Inok Nikolai]

Not sure where else to post this sad note about the original burial site:


Cross Vandalized at Russian Royal Family Memorial Near Ekaterinburg
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/blog/index.blog/1438257/cross-vandalized-at-russian-royal-family-memorial-near-ekaterinburg/

[LadyHezter]

Yes,very sad indeed!  Especially when it was the childrens  burial place. There should not  be any political hostility against them,if that is what the "hooligans"
intended !

Has anyone heard anything  about some plans for a descent funeral of the two remaining children lately, or is there still controversies going on....?

LadyH.

[Jen_94]

I've heard that there was some appeal to government by the Romanov Family Association about burying the last remains. Not sure how recent it is though.

Its so sad that the cross was vandalized, very sad.

[RomaFan96]

If the remains found in 1979/1991 were not the Romanovs then who were they? Many people who dispute their authenticity cannot come up with a suggestion as to these people's identities. Someone suggested that they may belong to the family of a rich merchant but this lead has not been followed up and does not make sense.

What are the chances of a random family, who happen to be exactly the same ages as the members of the IF being killed and buried in the way Yurovsky described in his note? Yurovsky took his job as commandant seriously and whilst he wasn't a die-hard hater of the IF he wasn't their biggest fan. I personally believe Yurovsky carried out the execution order to the letter and the remains found in 1991 are the remnants of his work 70 years before.

[TimM]

Anyone claiming those bodies were not the I.F. are clearly not in touch with reality.

[RomaFan96]

How did the scientists in 1991 know which bones belonged to which skeleton? I'd imagine some of the skeletons were in disarray due to time and decomposition, but Botkin's was held together with grave wax. I don't think they would have done a DNA analysis on each and every single bone and bone fragment as this would have cost money and time. Coud it be possible that some skeletons became commingled, or the skeleton of say, Olga, had some of Tatiana's bones?

[TimM]

They used methods such as height and the shape of the head to determine which was which.  It wasn't easy, but it was done.

[Forum Admin]

DNA didn't even exist in 1994.  Bob was in Ekaterinburg and saw the remains.  It wasn't really as difficult as it seems.  The only 2 who were so close in age and height were Maria and Anastasia (which is why we will never really know for certain who was in which grave between these two). All the other individuals were rather distinct in age, sex and height.

[aleksandr pavlovich]

How did the scientists in 1991 know which bones belonged to which skeleton? I'd imagine some of the skeletons were in disarray due to time and decomposition, but Botkin's was held together with grave wax. I don't think they would have done a DNA analysis on each and every single bone and bone fragment as this would have cost money and time. Coud it be possible that some skeletons became commingled, or the skeleton of say, Olga, had some of Tatiana's bones?

    Absolutely there exists more than a possibility of co-mingling of the smaller, lesser bones, since the bodies were slung into the common grave and the settling/decomposition then occured. I am no authority on these remains, but I understand that of course not EVERY bone of EACH person was accounted for, in fact some are still missing for various reasons. Obviously the skulls (including teeth) and larger/longer, and more anatomically-prominent bones became the foundations of identity.                                                                                       Regards,  AP.