Pig's Meadows Grave Questions

[helenazar]

Could you tell us, please,  the person to whom each skull belongs?

Thanks.

AGRBear

Well, on this site, they don't label them in that photo, but they have some other photos where they compare some of them...

Here is the skull they thought was Nicholas's:



Here are the skulls they thoughts were Anastasia, Olga and Tatiana. As you see, according to the Russians, Maria's skull is missing:

[helenazar]

There are also some pictures of the servants that they used to id them:



Botkin, Trupp, Kharitonov and two of Anna Demidova...

[helenazar]

I think that the way they excluded Maria from the grave was that they couldn't match the picture of her head to any of the skulls present. The rest had matched  - one skull each...

This is not nearly as precise as DNA - closer to the ear comparison, so not all that scientific.

[Lanie]

The skull that is said to be Tatiana's doesn't look like hers at all...look at the jaw compared to her jawline in the photograph... Bah, we'll never know who's who (except Olga).  :-/

[AGRBear]

...[in part]....

Here are the skulls they thoughts were Anastasia, Olga and Tatiana. As you see, according to the Russians, Maria's skull is missing:

So it's Anastasia on the far left then  Olga,  Maria and Tatiana in that order?

[helenazar]

So it's Anastasia on the far left then  Olga,  Maria and Tatiana in that order?

I don't know, but that's what the Russian researchers think...

[helenazar]

The skull that is said to be Tatiana's doesn't look like hers at all...look at the jaw compared to her jawline in the photograph...

Really? It looks like the jawline matches to me. But then again what do I know about skull comparisons! This is why this type of comparison is kind of subjective and not really scientific, sort of like handwriting analysis or ear analysis. If we just go by these skull comparisons, then yes it is difficult to accept who is who, but since the scientists also did all kinds of additional studies on these skeletons - such as examining their vertebrae fior fusion to determine approximate age, wisdom tooth develoment, etc. Taking all these together we can probably be pretty sure that Tatiana (and most likely Maria) were among the remains in that grave.

[jeremygaleaz]

Helen,

Did any of the scientists working on the remains ever use the procedure (I forget what it's called) used to get an idea of what ancient egyptians may have looked like from their skulls?
It involves making a clay mold of the skull and judging features based on specific points on the skull.

I wish I could remember what it was called....
 

[helenazar]

Jeremy, this technique is called "Forensic Reconstruction".  I don't think this was done with the Yekaterinburg skulls...

Facial reconstruction requires the expertise of a physical or forensic anthropologist to determine sex, age and ancestry on the skull, an extensive knowledge of the anatomy of the face and good artistic abilities.


 

There are two different approaches to facial reconstruction. The anatomical method (above) makes use of information left on the skull by the origins and insertions of the facial muscles to reconstruct the volumes of the face muscle-by-muscle. It is a long process and requires the expertise of a specialist with knowledge of comparative anatomy and biomechanics. This method of facial reconstruction is most often used in an archaeological context and can produce extremely good results. The above examples utilize a combination of techniques from the anatomical and tissue depth methods.

 

Facial reconstruction using the tissue depth method (above) is obtained by projecting the soft-tissues of a face based on the skull architecture and skin-depth charts to obtain an approximation of what the person might have looked like. This process is faster than the anatomical method and is mostly used by law enforcement agencies to try to trigger recognition and lead to the identification of a previously unidentified body.

More info:

http://www.forensicartist.com/reconstruction.html

[Abby]

Helen, that is fascinating! thanks for posting those pictures and the article. it always amazed me how that process never fails to capture the individual almost exactly!

[jeremygaleaz]

Thanks Helen

The skull thought by the Russians to be AN looks to be in the best condition of any of the 3 skulls. Do you know why this technique wasn't used to see which sister was actually missing?  

[helenazar]

Do you know why this technique wasn't used to see which sister was actually missing?  

I am not sure. Maybe it had something to do with the fact that most of the skulls were to damaged to get any kind of effective results. Perhaps this was too expensive of a techinique for the Russians, or maybe they didn't have the appropriate experts to do it. It could have been a number of different reasons.

Does anyone know if any replicas of the skulls in plaster were made and kept somewhere? If this was done, somene may still be able to do this technique, at least with the skull(s) that are more or less intact...

[AGRBear]

Date 11 July 1991: The layers of the grave as the bones were being dug up and removed were:
1.  Top-layer was 30 centimeters
2.  Railroad ties with "redeposited soil" - southern wall of mass grave then stones, branches, rotten wood
3. First bone uncovered was left pelvic bone of human remains at depth of 50 centimeters
4. Found the box with three skulls, sacrum, glass ampoules and viles [human hair and frgments of skin], two lumbar vertebrae, kneecaps, two jaw fragments with teeth, a lower jaw, two loose teeth two vertebra from neck, a right rib bone, two metcarpal bones, a right hipbone, portion of a left shoulder bone,  which had been placed in the pit in 1980 by Ryabov and Avdonin who had returned what they had found and taken out.   The box was taken up and opened.
--

12 July 1991
5.  Determined the dig in 1979 had damaged the integrity of the 1918 grave
6. Pit was widen and deepen
7. More bones found as well as fragments of vessels which is assumed were what had held the acid used in 1918.... rope...
8. The laying of a cable was noticed on the western corner of the pit
9.  See diagram of now the bones were found....

[unclear when the following was found]
10.  firing mechanism from a hand grenade
11.  bullets:   fourteen bullets from the following:
      a. one - 7.63 mm Mauser
      b. four were from:
           Browning
           Colt
           Smith & Wesson
      c. nine were from:
            Russian Nagant revolvers
--

13 July 1991- Exhumation ended

----

For more details see THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS b y Wilson and King  pps. 402-8
----
23 July to 25 July 1991

Bones were taken from the grave and to the Upper Verkh-Isetsk Police Departemnt's shooting range which is on the edge of Sverdlovsk

On ten sheets of plain brown wrapping paper the bones were sorted  [ the tenth were for the "we don't know" pile
----
Days which followed.

Bones were cleaned and washed and it is said that some bones crumbled into dust during this process....
-----
8 Aug 1991
Moscow authorized the formal investigation of the bones under the leadship of Dr. Bladislav Plaskin

All bones were numbered with white paint
-----

End of Sept.
Remains were moved to the Department of Criminal Pathology morgue in Sverdlovsk, third floor and behind a gated and locked door....  Bones were placed on metal autopsy tables and arranged...

Total of 500 bone fragments were left  [there are 206 individal bones in each human body]....

------
Second dig of mass grave

Oct 1991
12.  300 bone fragments were found
13.  13 loose teeth
14. 11 bullets
15. 150 small pieces of fatty tissue
16. fragments of rope and ceramic
----

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

...[in part]...

Does anyone know if any replicas of the skulls in plaster were made and kept somewhere? If this was done, somene may still be able to do this technique, at least with the skull(s) that are more or less intact...

p. 436 of  Edvard Radzinsky's book THE LAST TSAR:
"...1979 they decided to dig it up.  Then they removed three skulls from the grave, made casts, and put them back."

AGRBear

[helenazar]

p. 436 of  Edvard Radzinsky's book THE LAST TSAR:
"...1979 they decided to dig it up.  Then they removed three skulls from the grave, made casts, and put them back."

AGRBear

I am assuming that "they" is referring to Avdonin et al? So, does this mean that Mr Avdonin, or one of his friends,  still has the casts of these skulls?