Pig's Meadows Grave Questions

[LadyHezter]

A  mix-up among the skeletons could very well have happened. I always tought that the skeleton with the stabwounds must have  belonged to Anna Demidova instead of the Empress. There´s no reliable indication that the empress was stabbed-she was shot in the head, while poor Demidova was probably the last to die!
At least according the eye-witnesses.
The same thing could have happened to skeletons nr. 5 and 6, especially if the russian investigators are correct with Anastasia beeing nr.6.
The shape of the scull, and the shorter leg-bones are an indication, but not the mature pelvis, for example. But- the pelvis could belong to the taller skeleton-Tatiana(?), and the more immature pelvis no.5 to Anastasia.
Only a speculation.

LadyH.

[Jen_94]

I've always thought that could have been, and I do agree about a mix up of the skeletons possibly happening.

[Forum Admin]

The  only "mix ups" could be, as AP said, smaller bones, like toes, fingers or bone fragments.  There was enough material to determine between Demidova and the girls, of course not for every bone fragment. Only the later DNA testing could resolve those issues, which did occur.

[RomaFan96]

DNA didn't even exist in 1994.  Bob was in Ekaterinburg and saw the remains.  It wasn't really as difficult as it seems.  The only 2 who were so close in age and height were Maria and Anastasia (which is why we will never really know for certain who was in which grave between these two). All the other individuals were rather distinct in age, sex and height.

Actually, DNA testing was commercially available in 1987 - four years before the remains were found. British newspapers reported in 1991 that the bones of the Tsar had been identified via DNA analysis.

[RomaFan96]

A  mix-up among the skeletons could very well have happened. I always tought that the skeleton with the stabwounds must have  belonged to Anna Demidova instead of the Empress. There´s no reliable indication that the empress was stabbed-she was shot in the head, while poor Demidova was probably the last to die!
At least according the eye-witnesses.
The same thing could have happened to skeletons nr. 5 and 6, especially if the russian investigators are correct with Anastasia beeing nr.6.
The shape of the scull, and the shorter leg-bones are an indication, but not the mature pelvis, for example. But- the pelvis could belong to the taller skeleton-Tatiana(?), and the more immature pelvis no.5 to Anastasia.
Only a speculation.

LadyH.

I remember reading somewhere that after all the victims had fallen Ermakov took a bayonet and bludgeoned the Tsar and Tsarina, eventually shattering their rib cages and chipping some of Alexandra's vertebrae. Nicholas' rib cage, when examined, corroborated this story as they appeared to have been damaged by bayonet thrusts. Also quite a few of the skeletons which were recovered in 1991 showed evidence of stabbing.

[Forum Admin]

Was typing in a hurry.  Yes DNA analysis was around since the early 80s.  PCR analysis, which was the only way the Romanov remains could have been analysed was not used until the Anna Anderson testing, by Professor Gill in 1994 was the first time such DNA analysis had actually ever been done.

[RomaFan96]

Was typing in a hurry.  Yes DNA analysis was around since the early 80s.  PCR analysis, which was the only way the Romanov remains could have been analysed was not used until the Anna Anderson testing, by Professor Gill in 1994 was the first time such DNA analysis had actually ever been done.

Oh yes, I get you now. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

[RomaFan96]

Another reason to believe the authenticity of the remains is the fact that they were so well hidden. The Koptyaki Forest is allegedly a grave to many bodies, yet the Romanov bodies, rather than being tossed straight into the pit or burnt, they were subject to facial dis-figuration and acid. If they bodies did not belong to anyone important then there would have really been no need to go such lengths during the burial.

[RomaFan96]

Just a question: if Sokolov had found the IF's bodies when during his investigation how would have gone about identifying them seeing as DNA did not exist back in 1919? He stood on top their grave at one point so he was incredibly close! I don't know much about the rate of decomposition but maybe the bodies would have still had some flesh, but even this would have been difficult to analyse seeing as the Bolsheviks disfigured them?

[Forum Admin]

Sokolov would have had to use the primitive forensic methods of the time.  There probably would have been enough to recognize at least some of the victims, remember it was icy at the depths they were burying the bodies.  There were also the pieces of clothing and personal items they located nearby, which was pretty conclusive, actually.  Find the remains of their clothes and personal effects, which first hand witnesses can identify, then find the right number of mostly intact bodies a short distance away, and well, res ipsa loquitor.

[RomaFan96]

Without using any testimonies of Yurovsky and the other executioners or buriel crew,  what evidence can you give me that proves the following  nine peoples' bones were  found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow?

The nine people are:
1 Anna Demidova
2. Dr. Evgeny Botkin
3 GD Olga
4. ex-Tsar Nicholas II
5. GD Marie
6. GD Tatiana
7. ex-Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexei Trupp



Let's me start with number one, #1-Anna Demidova.

Does the DNA match someone in her family?  If so, who? If no family can be found to show a match what other evidence can we use?   Are the bones the right height for Demidova?  And, please,  tell your sources in your posts.

Added to this can be other questions.  For example:  Using the common diagram seen above, in what order do you think the bodies were placed in the grave?

Perhaps you'd like to know why the diagram shows just five skulls.  Are some hidden still in the ground or have they already been removed or they are shown but it's difficult to find in the drawing?

Thanks.

AGRBear

Hi there,

According to 'Ekaterinburg' by Helen Rappaport, Trupp was the first thrown into the grave and then the Tsar was thrown on top of him. As for the skull count, when Avdonin and Ryabov first exhumed the grave 1979, they collected three of the skulls to be sent for testing in Moscow. They later reburied the skulls in a box. The other remaining skull (as only 8 somewhat full skulls were recovered; Trupp's skeleton only had the skull cap due to excessive damage from the acid) could have been further down in the grave or underneath the large collection of bones. Hope that helps.

[TimM]

You should read Fate Of The Romanovs, Tara.  It goes into great detail about this (FOTR was written by Greg King and Penny Wilson, both members of this forum, I might add).   It was, however, written before the final two bodies were discovered in 2007.

[RomaFan96]

You should read Fate Of The Romanovs, Tara.  It goes into great detail about this (FOTR was written by Greg King and Penny Wilson, both members of this forum, I might add).   It was, however, written before the final two bodies were discovered in 2007.

I'm definitely looking to read 'Fate Of The Romanovs'. I've located it on Amazon it's now just a question if raising the funds to buy it. Greg King is a brilliant Romance historian and I've heard great things about the book.

[TimM]

You should also look for their book, Resurrection Of The Romanovs.  It's about Anna Anderson and how she pulled off her Anastasia stunt.  It really is quite good.

[RomaFan96]

Without using any testimonies of Yurovsky and the other executioners or buriel crew,  what evidence can you give me that proves the following  nine peoples' bones were  found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow?

The nine people are:
1 Anna Demidova
2. Dr. Evgeny Botkin
3 GD Olga
4. ex-Tsar Nicholas II
5. GD Marie
6. GD Tatiana
7. ex-Empress Alexandra
8. Ivan Kharitonov
9. Alexei Trupp



Let's me start with number one, #1-Anna Demidova.

Does the DNA match someone in her family?  If so, who? If no family can be found to show a match what other evidence can we use?   Are the bones the right height for Demidova?  And, please,  tell your sources in your posts.

Added to this can be other questions.  For example:  Using the common diagram seen above, in what order do you think the bodies were placed in the grave?

Perhaps you'd like to know why the diagram shows just five skulls.  Are some hidden still in the ground or have they already been removed or they are shown but it's difficult to find in the drawing?

Thanks.

AGRBear

Hi there,

According to 'Ekaterinburg' by Helen Rappaport, Trupp was the first thrown into the grave and then the Tsar was thrown on top of him. As for the skull count, when Avdonin and Ryabov first exhumed the grave 1979, they collected three of the skulls to be sent for testing in Moscow. They later reburied the skulls in a box. The other remaining skull (as only 8 somewhat full skulls were recovered; Trupp's skeleton only had the skull cap due to excessive damage from the acid) could have been further down in the grave or underneath the large collection of bones. Hope that helps.

Sorry, to amend my reply the missing three skulls were put into a box. That's why not all of the skulls can be seen in the diagram.