Pig's Meadows Grave Questions

[Penny_Wilson]

Which bodies had the most bones missing?

Without a doubt, the ones lowest in the grave.  Mr Kharitonov didn't even have a complete skull, just the top of the cranium.  And all the bodies, I think, were missing hand and foot bones and other, smaller bones.  Some had no lower leg bones, and some were missing vertebrae -- though one or two bodies were partially encased in grave-wax, so they were better preserved.

[griffin]

Without a doubt, the ones lowest in the grave.

So do you think the missing bones were a result of the Sulfuric acid?

one or two bodies were partially encased in grave-wax

Really which ones?

[AGRBear]

Here is another explanation as to why certain bones could be missing from the grave in Pig's Meadow.  If the bodies were dug up from somewhere else and buried here the following occured:

....[in part]....
As a point of information, one of the main reasons that bones "go missing" is often because bodies are moved or (as in neolithic burial practices) the bodies are exposed and then the bones collected & buried later.  This means that smaller bones such as fingers & toes tend to drop off at the original site & get overlooked in the move.  I know all about this as my wife is doing a course on prehistoric ritual practices & I hear about it regularly.

......Phil Tomaselli

Penny, I, too, am curious about who's body was encased in "grave wax" and why were they and not the others?

AGRBear

[lexi4]

So who is actually missing from the grave? GDA or GDM?

[Lanie]

So who is actually missing from the grave? GDA or GDM?

Could be either Tatiana, Maria, or Anastasia.  The only daughter verified by both teams was Olga.  

[Alice]

Griffin, I'll have to look up the data so I can give you a source.

Meanwhile, Candice asked me to place this on the thread for her.



AGRBear

It looks like (L-R) Olga, Alexandra, Nicholas, Tatiana and Marie to me.

Tatiana has the smallest head of the sisters, and the smallest one is to the right of Nicholas's so that's why I say that's hers. Marie has like a point on the top of hers, and her head is large-ish, so I say that's her on the far right. And Olga's has a very definite shape.

If I can read the writing under the newspaper photo it says Olga, Alexandra, Nicholas, Tatiana and Anastasia. But the last head is too pointy for Anastasia, and is consistent with Marie's, IMO.

It's interesting to see a photo of the Fiat. Unless it was customised it'd be very easy for bodies to fall off the back. Also, going by the size of the tray it seems like it'd be very cramped with eleven bodies on there.

Has anyone considered that maybe two of the bodies are missing because they couldn't fit all of them on the back of the Fiat, and that's why they were buried elsewhere?

[La_Mashka]

You are right about how pointed Maria skull is... I had never noticed.

However, it is hard to tell from the angle Anastasia's head is on the bald picture whether her head was also pointed...

[lexi4]

Good point about the Fiat. I wondered that too. Just out of curiousity, why do the ycall it Pig's Meadows?

[AGRBear]

Digging around some old files I've come across a British Military Intelligence report from c1920 which includes a Report to the Minister of Justice by the Procureur of the High Court of Kazan (M Mireluboff) dated 12th December 1918 which includes details of the preliminary inquiry into the murder of the late Emperor and his family.  This includes an declaration by one  Theodore Nikiforov Kutuzoff dated July 17th 1918 gathered by Assistant Procurator Kutuzoff regarding the murder of the family, information about the burials provided by peasants at Koptyakov, descriptions of the room in Ipatiev Dom, including room size and numbers of cavities in the wall,  statements by Gilliard & Tchemaduroff, details of the seizure of various articles belonging to the family from a forner soldier named Ketemitin, and a statment from one Kutenkoff about overhearing members of the burial party say "at first they were buried at two spots outside Ekaterinberg but afterwards carried away and buried at different spots".

Is this report common knowledge?  If so I'll forget it, otherwise I'll take the time to transcribe it in sections for the site.  This may take some time as it runs to 8 pages of typescript.

Phil Tomaselli  

Since I've always thought it was possible that the grave i Pig's Meadow  may not have been the grave Yurovsky claimed was the buriel of all nine on the 17th/18th of July, and, it that it might well have been the second grave for some, I find Phil's post more than a little interesting.  Why?  Because too many bones were missing and the ones missing are the ones often missing when bodies are lefted out of one grave and placed into another.

In Klier and Mingay's book are diagrams of the various skeletons and the bones that are missing

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

The parts in black are the bones missing according to Kleir and Mingay:



They are listed as:

1. Anna Demidova    2. Evgeny Botkin  3. GD Olga Nikolaevna


AGRBear

[AGRBear]

They are listed as:
4. Nicholas II    5.  GD Maria Nikolaevna or  GD Anastasia Nikolaevna   6. GD Tatiana

[AGRBear]

The following are:

7. Alexandra Fedorovna  8. Ivan Kharitonov   9.  Aleksei Trupp

[Finelly]

I think that by now, after reading more and more reports about the bones, their burial,their discovery, etc, many of us are starting to question the entire story from 1917 to the 1990s.

Y's two statements contradict.  We don't know if his handwriting made the final notation on his statement.  We have to take the word of Radzinsky, who often seems implausible and overly dramatic.

The bodies were discovered numerous times.  Bones, skulls, were taken out, put back in, put under beds, etc.

At one point, a CABLE LINE was buried RIGHT IN THE GRAVE, which leads one to the reasonable suspicion that SOMEONE must have found the bones.  

The "discovery" of the bones, the official one, seems to have interesting timing.  And to have received official, governmental sanction.

Bodies are missing.  Hundreds of bones are missing.  There's no evidence of burning.  

I have no doubt that these are the Romanov bones.  I just think that the official stories of how they were originally put there and then "discovered" are.........not entirely factual.

[RealAnastasia]

I think they really are the Romanov's bones, but I can't said for sure if someday we'll know which girl is missing, and exactly who is who. The only girl you may said for sure who she is, is Olga Nicolaievna...

As for the bodies partially preserved in wax-grave (this is called "adipocere") the better preserved is the one who belongs to Doctor Botkin. Almost all of his abdomen is preserved in adipocere. Other corpses had little pieces of adipocere in them: I think that Alexandra's one and one of the girls had a little adipocere in femurs and other bones.

RealAnastasia.

[AGRBear]

Chart of the bullet holes found in the bones.

This is being discussed over on another thread but I thought while I had it copied,  I'd place it here, too.

AGRBear

PS  #7 skeleton is missing from this chart....  Is this an error???
According to the other chart,  #8 skeleton's head for the most part is missing so I'm not sure how a bullet hole into the side of the skull can be correct.  Perhaps  #8 should be #7 Alexandra....

PSS According to THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS  p. 308  "..bullet slamed into the left side of her,"  [Alexandra's],  "skull"