Pig's Meadows Grave Questions

[AGRBear]

List of items found in bag #2:
-right hipbone, damaged by cutting, wrapped in a yellow polyethylene plastic
-left shoulder bone

[AGRBear]

List of items found in bag #3:

-human skull, more precisely, the cerebral section of the skull in a yellow polyethlene plastic: the skull had not knit which indicated young age. The base of the skull was broken.  The face is missing
-two bone framents of an upper jaw with teeth; the teeth were not worn indicating the young age
--lower jaw; the specialist established that it belonged to a young person because of the incomplete cut of the left eighth tooth crown
-two teeth, a molar and a canine

[AGRBear]

List of items found in bag #4:
-human skull with facial section destroyed, wrapped in a yellow plastic.  On the facial parietal bone there was a round defect about 8 mm.  in diameter.  By it's appearance it looks like bullet damage.

[AGRBear]

Items listed which was fund the bag #5:

-a human skull with the facial part destroyed.  According to the specialist, it special feature is a pernmanent bridgelike denture from yellow metal on he molars of th left side.

There was no apparent mechanical damage on the skull.  The skull was packed in a new polyethylene bag....


AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Bumping this up on request from others... .

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Over on the Princess of German Blood thread,  we are discussing the missing bones.  I suggested the discussion be continued here.

This was my comment:

Some of you are so funny.

Just last week some of you were tearing apart Michael Buchanan-Smart's discovery over one bone and I'm presenting the fact that their are about four skeletal worth of bones missing from a site which was not just dug up once but twice July and Oct in 1991.   Yes, twice.  After the Russian scientists discovered there were not enough bones they sent in scientists to find the rest.  They had churned up 20 tons of earth....  Anyone have any idea how much earth it takes to make 20 tons....?  And, still they are short four sketetal worth of bones,  plus Alexei and one grand duchess.

And,  knowing that the natural decay would not have caused that many bones to be missing,  some of you continue to tell me and the scientsists who have been involved that we are  on a wrong road to truth.

Then please,  be so kind and explain to me  and the scientists why there are so many bones missing. But not here.  Over on the thread about questions on the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.....

And,  if some of the bodies were buried elssewhere and then dug and and reburied in the mass grave,  I don't know how anyone could determine  what the order of death was, where they were killed...  All we know is the order they were placed in the mass grave.

It appears to me that Nicholas II and one of the servants, Trupp,  I think it was,  who are at the lowest level were buried first.  And, it would seem that they might have been executed first.  However, that said,  we don't know... And,  I can assure you that the people posting here do not know either.

Yes,   let's get back to the topic about the Princesses of German blood and carry the topic of too few bones back over to the Questions About the Grave In Pig's Meadow if you wish to continue.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,1865.0.html


AGRBear

 

[Louis_Charles]

Then please,  be so kind and explain to me  and the scientists why there are so many bones missing. But not here.  Over on the thread about questions on the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.....

While I do love the image of "you and the scientists" --- as though the forces of Science are ranged behind you, Bear --- I would like to inquire as to which scientist who worked on the excavation of the grave supports the idea that all nine of the identified people were not found in it, or placed at roughly the same time? The grave suffered damage during the 70 years before it was "officially" opened. There are not 4 skeletons missing, and even a cursory examination --- which is apparently the only kind you ever do, so what's the problem? --- of the excavation video or testimonies regarding the unscientific manner in which it was handled will provide a possible clue as to what happened to the bones.

As I said on the other thread, this long ago ceased to be about the Romanovs and is now about your ego's needs. As I recall, you posted reservations about Mr. Buchanan-Smart's forensic techniques and his need to be careful. Physician, heal thyself.

[AGRBear]

So what you're saying Simon is that the accepted story is true because it's the accepted story and if any facts get in the way there must be something wrong with the facts, not the story.  Well its an argument of some sorts I suppose............

Phil Tomaselli

and on the subject of missing bones can I just chime in that I've worked on 3 archaeological digs here in the UK and my wife on rather more and that that many bones don't just disappear through natural causes in 80 years, though the question of the rather unscientific techniques used in the Russian digs may explain their absence through unnatural causes.

I agree with Phil.

And, Simon, it appears you, who should know about the human character since that is your business,  that it is true that people tend to believe the first story which is told.  Even if the first story is false,  it is the one most people remember and believe.  That is why it was important that the Bolshevik tell their story first.  And, that is why the Bolsheviks / communists were so good at hiding the truth from the people in Russia and the world from their conception to their downfall.

Trouble is,  their story got a little murky didn't it?

 I believe the Bolsheviks first announced that just Nicholas II was executed and the family was taken to a safe place. 

Then there was good old Ermakov drinking with his buddies and telling everyone that all eleven had been executed and that he had killed Nicholas II...

Then they have soldiers running around looking for Alexei and Anastasia....

The White arrive and it's better for their cause that they prove quickly that the eleven were executed so they could   use this as a fact against the Bolshevik "monsters" and .....  They made up all kinds of gastly stories about making Nicholas II watch as his daugthers were raped.....  But the early investigators didn't believe that the royal family was executed that night but believed it was staged....  One investigator after another was removed....  It wasn't until Sokolov came along which was months and months and months later that the Whites found someone to carry the banner which stated the entire family was executed on the night of 16/17  July 1918....  And,  Sokolov ignored evidence like the 40 testimonies gathered by one of the investogators whom the Boshviks found and killed...  One of the men who helped Sokolov was Gilliard who admitted in AA's trial that he destroyed evidence,  was the one who claimed the dog found in the Four Brother's Mine was Jemmy....

It is a known fact that Sokolov's apartment in Paris was visited by Bolsheviks who stole important documents....  This break-in  was reported to the police and is on record. 

So,  here all of us are in 2006 looking into the facts.  And,  true to human nature,  most of you continue to believe the "first story".   

I don't believe the "frsit story".  One of my many reasons is based on fact:  There are too many bones missing from the mass grave.  AND,  no one can find the grave of the two who are missing from the mass grave.

Why is it that some of you are so unwilling to question even the topic of bones from the mass grave???   

I know I can. And,  I will not stop asking question,  until the sceintists who are actual involved or to be involved can among  themselves  be satisfied.

AGRBear

[Louis_Charles]

Bear,

In addition to my work in theatre, I am also a trained historian (no brag, just fact) with degrees in the field. References furnished upon request. I have no idea what story people believe; I believe what I believe based upon rational inquiry. There is a place for speculation in that kind of inquiry, but in this case I cannot appreciate your grounds.

Exactly what part of Phil's statement do you agree with? The part about the unscientific methodology used at the excavation as a possible explanation for the missing bone fragments? As I said when I responded to it, I agree with that as well.

I asked for you to provide a scientist's name who might support you in this --- no answer?

I repeat, this is not about the Romanovs, Bear, it's about you. All you are actually saying in your post is that your need to believe in the preposterous is greater than a need to understand the truth. And that's not funny, it's sad.

 I might point out that there is hard evidence on the side of those who accept the grave as the initial resting place. The bodies were where the testimonies had said they would be . . .


Simon

[AGRBear]

Then please,  be so kind and explain to me  and the scientists why there are so many bones missing. But not here.  Over on the thread about questions on the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.....

While I do love the image of "you and the scientists" --- as though the forces of Science are ranged behind you, Bear --- I would like to inquire as to which scientist who worked on the excavation of the grave supports the idea that all nine of the identified people were not found in it, or placed at roughly the same time? The grave suffered damage during the 70 years before it was "officially" opened. There are not 4 skeletons missing, and even a cursory examination --- which is apparently the only kind you ever do, so what's the problem? --- of the excavation video or testimonies regarding the unscientific manner in which it was handled will provide a possible clue as to what happened to the bones.

As I said on the other thread, this long ago ceased to be about the Romanovs and is now about your ego's needs. As I recall, you posted reservations about Mr. Buchanan-Smart's forensic techniques and his need to be careful. Physician, heal thyself.

Simon, Simon, Simon,

At no time have I stated that there were 4 skeltons/ remains missing.  If you read more carefully, I have said there were the number of bones missing which add up to about 4 skeleton worth of bones missing.  BIG DIFFERENCE.

At no time have I stated that the scientist have stated that the bodies found in the grave were not buried there in July of 1918.

What I haves stated is that the Russian scientist and other scientists believe that there are too many bones missing.  Why else would they taken the time for the second excavation and churn up tons of dirt???  And still they fell short.  About 4 skeletal worth of bones short. 

With this knowledge,  I have asked:  Why are there so many bones missing when it cannot be explained away with the acid or natural decay?

Phil, who has had personal experience,  has given us one reason.

Thank you, Phil.

Anyone else have any personal experience.  I haven't.  Has anyone else?

AGRBear

[Louis_Charles]

Bear,

Thanks, I appreciated the difference when I made my post, and stand by what I wrote.

Phil's personal experience, while interesting,  is irrelevant, although if it provides you with a reason to accept his explanation, by all means, incorporate it into your thought processes.

So you accept the idea that the bodies were placed in the grave in July, 1918, which of course means between July 17 and the end of the month . . . but you still allow for the possibility that the women took a trip to Perm? Or are you just morbidly interested in which bones were crunched by ditch diggers, dissolved by acid, carted off by wild animals, tossed aside by careless investigators . . . really, "ghoulish" is a kind way of describing this.

Oh right . . . you're on a search for truth.

[Tsarfan]

Anyone else have any personal experience.  I haven't.  Has anyone else?

Yes.  Ludmilla Koryakova, the archaeologist at Ural State University, who oversaw the 1991 excavation.  Since her explanation for missing bones that I posted yesterday ran off your back like water off a duck, I'll try once more:

"There was no time to prepare, no tools, no instruments, none of the things you really need for a proper excavation.  Parts of the skeletons and of the site of the grave had been considerably destroyed by the 1979 dig and the laying of a power cable.  Some of the bones were in such bad condition by the time I got to them that they could hardly be distinguished from the surrounding soil.  If bits and pieces got left in the mud, it's not to be wondered at:  the excavation was done in three days when it should have taken weeks."

[lexi4]

So what was the rush? Why not do it right?

[Tsarfan]

The citizens of Ekaterinburg had built up quite a bit of resentment at their city's becoming famous as the site of the Romanov massacre.  There was widespread hope that any bodies found would prove not to be the imperial family or -- better yet -- that no bodies would be recovered at all.

Apparently there were fears that the attempt to recover the bodies would be blocked either by political intervention or by public unrest.  The digging was done under armed guard, with hoardes of local onlookers on the periphery throughout the dig.

One also has to remember that the national political situation was very unstable in the summer of 1991.  This dig was undertaken just a month before the coup against Gorbachev.  And Boris Yeltsin, who was soon to become Russia's first President, was an Ekaterinburg native who had torn down the Ipatiev house in 1977 to prevent its becoming a pilgrimage site.  (Although he had done this on Moscow's orders and reportedly against his own inclinations, I doubt anyone was sure of his motives or the pressures he was under that summer fourteen years later.)

My guess is that the people who were interested in recovering the bodies felt they had a quickly-narrowing window in which to recover as much from the site as they could.

[lexi4]

Thank you Tsarfan. You made a point that I had not considered; the dig was just one month before the coup against Gorbachev. That makes perfect sense and explains the climate. I can see why the people recovering the bodies might have felt a little "rushed."
Lexi