Pig's Meadows Grave Questions

[AGRBear]

People keep asking the same questions over and over again, so I have decided to put all the basic information in one place to keep these repetiious posts to a minimum.


On July 29, 2007, certain items were discovered by S.O. Plotnikov and L.G. Vakhmyakov.  In the bore pit that had been located and explored, coals, bone remains, nails and fragments from a ceramic vessel were unearthed.  The spot where the remains were found this summer appears to correspond to a site described by Yakov Yurovsky, the leader of the family's killers, said Sergei Pogorelov, deputy head of the archaeological research department at a regional center for the preservation of historical and cultural monuments in Yekaterinburg.

The deputy director of the Center of protection and use of the cultural heritage of Sverdlovsk, Andreï Grigoriev, told  journalists that the researches had begun after the discovery of archival documents.

" I learnt that the former regional archives of the Communist Party received documents speaking about the murder of the imperial family and about a fruitless attempt to hide corpses ", clarified Mr Grigoriev.

These documents had allowed the specialists to establish the place where the tsarevich Alexis and the grand duchess Marie would have been buried. Following the search organized on a site of 100 square meters, the researchers had discovered the remains of human bodies, bullets, fragments of wooden boxes and fragments of ceramic which, according to preliminary estimations, represented fragments of amphoras used to hold some acid.

an area of 100 square meters was laid out for further investigation.  The work was carried out according to archeological methods, with the use of drainage trenches.  As a result of this exploration, a large spot of coal was exposed.  Upon further examination, this spot was determined to be T-shaped.  After removing the layer of coal, the shapes and sizes of two overlying pits became evident in the subsoil.

    An area discovered along the Old Koptyaki Road presented double bonfire sites, spread between pits, which contained bone remains in various degrees of preservation and condition; bullets; iron nails and angles, fragments of a ceramic vessel and other objects.

•    Initial anthropological analysis determined that the bone remains were human, subjected to varying forms of destruction – including burning.  The bones belong to two young individuals – a young man between the ages of 10-13 years, and a young woman about 18-23.

•    Ceramic vessel fragments are identical to those found in the original burial site found in 1991, and appear to be fragments from ceramic amphorae containing Japanese sulfuric acid. Analysis matches these to be identical to the ones found in the burial site of the other bodies.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.

•    Iron angles and nails, apparently, appear to have held together the wooden crates containing the vessels with the sulfuric acid.

•    The metal jacket bullets are of different calibers, from cartridges for short-barreled firearms.  Analysis matches these to be identical to the ones found in the burial site of the other bodies discovered in  1991.

The Forensic Director of Medicine of Sverdlovsk Mr Nevoline clarified that the forensic scientists had also received seven fragments of teeth, three bullets of a weapon with short standard cannon and a fragment of fabric of garment.
 G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning in 1918. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."

The three bullets also match exactly those found in the "mass grave" previously found in1991.
“The remains have been exposed to extreme heat, and the bullets were found close to the bones and must have hit the victims’ bodies,” Mr. Nevolin said

[AGRBear]

My posts from #116 to #120 are not about the mass grave but a  recent discovery, 29 July 2007, about 60 / 70 km from the mass grave.

For farther discussion on the new grave and the two missing bodies,  I'm going over  to the thread about this subject.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,1491.0.html

I think it's best we keep the two buriel areas on different threads to prevent confusion.

Thanks everyone for being so generous with your information.

Anyone have any questions about the mass grave, it's excavation, etc. etc. etc.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

The difference between the mass grave found in Pig's Meadow and the two pits discovered 29 July 2007 appears to be that the nine were not subjected to fire and the two remains in the two pits were.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

The following is data on the bones of the  young females found in the mass grave:

p. 256 of Maples:
>>Body No. 5 belonged to a woman in her late teens or early twenties.<<
>>Dr. Levine and I agreed that she was the youngest of the five women whose skeletons lay before us.  We concluded this from the fact that the root tips of her third molars were incomplete. Her sacrum in the back of her pelvis, was not completely developed.  Her limb bones showed that growth had only recently ended. Her back showed evidence of immaturity, but it was nevertheless the back of a woman at least eight yers old.  We estimated her height t 67.5 inches.<<
>>We believe this skeleton is that of Marie,  who was nineteen years old at the time of the murders.<<
67.5 = 5 feet 6 inches tall

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Height of the other young females found in  the mass grave as reported by  Maples:

p. 255

GD Olga

>>Body No. 3's skeleton belonged to a young adult female... <<

>>..in her twentied when she died.  It has been tentatievly identified as belonging to the young Grand Duchess Olga.<<

>>She clearly was completely grown, and the roots of her thrid molars, her "wisdom teeth" were fully developed.<<

>>Regrettably the bones of the legs were not intact; they had been cut into sectons after being dug up before we arrived...<<

>>As a results,  they could not be used for height estimates.  Instead we used bones from the arms...<<

>>...we arrived at a height estimate of 64.9 inches<<

64.9 =  5 feet 4 inches 


AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Maples continued:
GD Tatiana
p. 256
>>Body No. 6 belonged to a young woman who was ...fully grown. Her dental and skeletal development fell neatly between that of Bodies 3 and 5. There was no evidence of recent growth in her limb bones. Her sacrum and pelvic rim were mature, which made her a least eighteen.  On the basis of her limb bones,  we put her height at 65.6 inches...<<
>>...More important, her collarbone was mature, making her at least twenty years old.<<
>>...Grand Duchess Tatiana was twenty-one years and two months old at the time of the shooting, so this skeleton agree very closely with the historical record.<<
65.6 = 5 feet 5.4 inches
AGRBear

[Amanda_Misha]

One question:
If there are many tests that it is Nicholas that was in the tomb that it gave origin to the myth of which who was buried he was Michael?
Thanks for its answers
Greetings to all

[dmitri]

Michael's body has never been found. He also was not murdered in Ekaterinburg with his brother, family and servants.

[AGRBear]

We know the mass grave has been distrubed a number of times.

....bones removed from the grave in 1979:

I listed:  "Found the box with three skulls, sacrum, glass ampoules and viles [human hair and frgments of skin], two lumbar vertebrae, kneecaps, two jaw fragments with teeth, a lower jaw, two loose teeth two vertebra from neck, a right rib bone, two metcarpal bones, a right hipbone, portion of a left shoulder bone,  which had been placed in the pit in 1980 by Ryabov and Avdonin who had returned what they had found and taken out.   The box was taken up and opened."

Were any of the bones from this box used for the DNA testing?

AGRBear

How do  we know that all the bones found by  Ryabov and Avodonin were returned to the mass grave in 1980?

It was apparent that when a cable was placed next to the mass grave that the bones were distrubed.  How do we  know that the bones dug up were not reburied elsewhere?

How many  other times was the grave distrubed and by whom and did they removed any bones?  If so,  what happen to these bones?

How  do we know that some of the 44 fragments of bones, teeth, bullets and clay jars  from the mass grave  are not the bones reburied in the new pits found  this last July of 2007?

What happen to the bones discovered by  Michael Buchannen-Smart in 2006 and 2007?

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

The three bullets of different calibre found at the site

[/center

Since the Russians tell us that these bullets were from two different Brownings,  then  I assume this is what  these are,  three spent bullets  from two different Brownings.

Does anyone have any information that  would tell us otherwise?


AGRBear

[AGRBear]

caliber  of a gun:

 the internal diameter or bore of a gun barrel : [in combination ] a .22 caliber repeater rifle.
• the diameter of a bullet, shell, or rocket.

[AGRBear]

Follow the thread and it'll take you to  facts about  Browning revolvers used in Russia in 1918:

Browning 1900  revolver bullet:



Found at:
http://guns4u.info/?p=461

Bullet caliber  7,65 X 17 mm

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

It is believed that Tatiana's dog, Ortino, was killed in the early morning hours as were Nicholas II and his family.  Were his bones found in the mass grave?  If not,  were the dog's bones found anywhere?  Maybe,  at the Four Brother's Mine?  I remember there were small animal bones found at the mine.  Some were chicken bones.... 

We know about Jemmy's, the Springer Spaniel's,  corpse being found in July of 1919 by the Whites. 

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

....[in part]...
An account of Ortino's killing is given in Kudrin's testimony. It's more than likely that some of the animal bones found at the Four Brothers mineshaft were those of Ortino. If there's no account of Jemmy's killing it could very well be because Yurovsky played no part in it. Moreover, look at it this way, if you have the bodies of eleven human beings to dispose of, how concerned are you going to be about the fate of one or two dogs?

.....

[AGRBear]

...[in part]....

As for Ortino, here it is the quote from FOTR: "...In the  courtyard, Kudrin saw Goloshchokin, who warned him that he had been walking in the Voznesensky Square and clrearly heard the shots and screams form the basement. As they passed the secondary staircase, the two men saw Ortino, Tatiana's bulldog, whimpering at the top. The dog rushed down the staircase in search of his mistress. A nearby soldier grabbed a bayonet, impaled the wuivering body, then heaved it into the rear of the Fiat. '...A dog's death to dogs!...' Goloshchokin commented..."

.....

RealAnastasia.