Author Topic: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions  (Read 91400 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2005, 06:59:09 PM »
I don't know who told Radzinsky about the skulls being removed.  He called him his "mysterious voice" then just his "guest" on p. 435.  

The year of 1979 so my guess is that it was one of the following: Avdonin, Ryabov, Grennady, Pesotsky or Kuchurov.

All  were present at the digging on 32 May 1979.... p. 387 Fate of the Romanovs by King and Wlson.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2005, 12:27:45 PM »
I really never paid much attention to all the bones removed from the grave in 1979:

I listed:  "Found the box with three skulls, sacrum, glass ampoules and viles [human hair and frgments of skin], two lumbar vertebrae, kneecaps, two jaw fragments with teeth, a lower jaw, two loose teeth two vertebra from neck, a right rib bone, two metcarpal bones, a right hipbone, portion of a left shoulder bone,  which had been placed in the pit in 1980 by Ryabov and Avdonin who had returned what they had found and taken out.   The box was taken up and opened."

Were any of the bones from this box used for the DNA testing?

AGRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2005, 10:44:38 AM »
Penny sent us this photo of a Fiat truck:



AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

griffin

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2005, 12:57:56 PM »
I just want to make sure I have this straight, Ryabov & Co. found the grave in the 1970's based on info in Yurovsky's note,given to them by his son.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2005, 06:57:16 PM »
Griffin, I'll have to look up the data so I can give you a source.

Meanwhile, Candice asked me to place this on the thread for her.



AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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moonlight_tsarina

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2005, 07:04:22 PM »
That is unbelievable!
Where was that done? ???
:o :o
However, the face next to Olga's is hard to point out right away.
Alexandra's recreation doesn't really look like her. They should put wigs on them to make them easier to identify! Lol.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by moonlight_tsarina »

helenazar

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2005, 07:31:58 PM »
Quote



Hmmm... Nicholas is easy, he's got a beard  ;). Which one is Alexandra? I can see Olga is the one on the left... the rest - I can't really tell.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2005, 07:57:25 PM »
There were two men, Alexander Nikolaieevich Avdonin and Geli Ryabov, who found the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

Griffin wanted to know who told them where the information was that disclosed the grave's whereabouts.

Evdiently it was Ryabov, who had connection to high officals in the Russian govt. and in the KGB which allowed him to see maps and materials, according to King and Wilson, p. 385 in THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS.  He visited Yurovsky daughter, who was of no help, and then he visited Yurovsky's son Alexander:

"Alexander...called Ryabov into a small room and said, 'Look, I'm going to give you something that no one else has seen-- my father's note that he wrote at the time. It's his personal account of the murderes held in the Soviet Archvies."

I am not clear about "the note".  It appears the testimony was the same as found in the archives only with Yurovsky's handwritten corrections.  At the bottom of the testimony is a "note" but it's not clear who wrote it.  According to King and Wilson :  "...did Historian Michel Pokrovksy append this information at the bottom."  Neither the testimony nor the note gave directions of the exact spot of the grave site.

There was a photograph from Sokolov's book, which Ryabov had already seen,  showing where the truck broke down.

Added to this was the statement of Vassili Lobvukhin, the watchman at Grade Crossing 184 along Koptyaki Rd. who talked about the railroad ties, which Ryabov had seen..

Ryabov linked the three things togather, and soon Ryabov and Avdonin started their search.

Sept. 1978: Avdonin and his geologist friend Michael Kochurov started to look for possible places that fit the description of the buriel site.  And after surveying the land started to probe the earth and they wound the railway ties and under it was the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

31 April  1979:  After the winter freeze, Avdonin and Kuchurov returned to the sight and started a real dig.  Five others joined them and they were: Avdonin's wife,   Ryabov and his wife Margaret, Gennady Vassiliev, and Vladislav Pesorsky.

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

griffin

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2005, 08:30:26 PM »
Ok, so they just figured it out themselves, I'm confused, in "The Romanovs The Final Chapter" pg. 32 Massie says
       
      "At the end of his report Yurovsky added the precise location of the secret grave"

And then he goes on to give the location in quotes, can anyone explain? ???

Malenkaya

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2005, 12:53:26 AM »
Quote

Hmmm... Nicholas is easy, he's got a beard  ;). Which one is Alexandra? I can see Olga is the one on the left... the rest - I can't really tell.


If you look closely, under the photo, it says (left to right) they are Olga, Alexandra, Nicholas, Tatiana and Anastasia.

Abby

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2005, 06:57:41 AM »
It doesn't look much like Alix; I thought it was Alexei!
But then I read the caption and you can make out the words. This is interesting because I was just re-watching "Revenge of the Romanovs" yesterday with my mom and they were doing the facial reconstruction over the casts of the skulls but they didn't show the finished products, they only showed them in the act. I thought, 'i wonder what they look like finished?' I  wonder why we have not seen this picture earlier?
Interesting how this concludes that Maria is not present. ???

Griffin, the location of the grave was given by Yurovsky clearly enough so that Ryabov and Avdonin found it on their own. I can't find the exact quote from the Yurovsky Note, but I know it is in 'The Last Tsar' by Radzinsky. It says something like "the bones are located [a number of] versts off such-and-such road in a pit [a number of] arshins deep" or something. I will go look for it now.

peter kurth writes:
And so the hunt for the bones began, along with the vagueness, the half truths, the claims and counterclaims.  When the story hit the Western papers in April 1989, Ryabov was pictured like a road company Hamlet, scowling and holding a skull which he claimed was a plaster cast of Alexei's.  It was a sign of the general credulity of reporters that they simply wrote this down, without asking questions, without checking facts, without even wondering, apparently, how it came about that a "crime writer" in the Soviet Union, poking into archives and combing the forest with spades, had dug up the tsar unmolested.  By his own account, Ryabov spent more than three years searching for relics in the woods outside Ekaterinburg -- it was a closed city in those days, a sensitive defense industry town -- helped only by a small band of unnamed "friends" and "volunteer assistants.”  When the moment of discovery finally carne, on May 30, 1979, the group was “rewarded":



We took a water pipe [Ryabov told The Orthodox Word], a few inches wide in diameter, sharpened it and began to insert it over the approximate site of the grave, using a heavy mallet.  At first we hit virgin topsoil, undisturbed by human hands.  But further down we hit soil which showed evidence of human action.... Soon we made the first find -- the very first one was black green.... It was the pelvic bone of Nicholas II.

They "reached down into the grave” and "touched at, least eight or nine skeletons.”

helenazar

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2005, 08:33:15 AM »
Quote

If you look closely, under the photo, it says (left to right) they are Olga, Alexandra, Nicholas, Tatiana and Anastasia.


Yes, I see it now, thanks! Well, this just goes to show you how unreliable this facial reconstruction was (at least in this case): they are not really even recognizable, except maybe for Nicholas, and that's probably because of the beard, and Olga, and that's only because of the unique shape of her head! I wouldn't take this as indisputable proof that the skull belongs to Anastasia and not Maria...

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2005, 12:43:02 PM »
Yurovsky's testimony of 1 Feb 1934:  :...We headed for the Siberian high road. Having crossed the railroad, we transferred two corpses to the truck, but it soon got stuck again. We struggled for about two hours. It was almost midnight. Then I decided that we should do the burying somewhere around there, because at that late hour nobody actually could see us. Only the watchman of the passing track saw several men, because I sent for ties to cover the place where the corpses would be put. The explanation for needing ties was: The ties had to be laid for a truck to pass over. I forgot to say that we got stuck twice that evening or, to be precise, that night. About two months ago, I was looking through the book by Sokolov, the preliminary investigator of the extremely important cases under Kolchak, when I saw a photo of those stacked ties. It was mentioned that the ties had been laid there to let a truck pass. So, having dug up the entire area, they did not think to look under the ties."

I guess there is controversy [as there is with so many facts on this subject] if the "note" at the bottom of the copy of the testimony is by Yurovsky, as mentioned above in King and Wilson's book.

I didn't find anything about it in Radzinsky's THE LAST TSAR but that doesn't mean it's not there, I just took a quick look.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

griffin

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2005, 07:19:16 PM »
Word for word according to Massie:
                   "At the end of his report,Yurovsky added the precise location of the secret grave:"Koptyaki,12 miles from Ekaterinburg to the north-west. The The railroad tracks pass 6 miles between Koptyaki and the Upper Isetsk factory. From where the railroad tracks cross (the road) they are buried about 700 feet in the direction of the Istesk factory."
So is this exactly where they found them?

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Pig's Meadows Grave Questions
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2005, 07:21:45 PM »
I think there is, now, an ongoing debate as to who wrote the note at the bottom of the testimony papers of Yurovsky.

Since I'm not privy to this,  we'll have to wait and see what others have to say about the note.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152