Author Topic: King George II & Queen Elizabeth (nee Romania)  (Read 208123 times)

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Offline basilforever

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #135 on: March 15, 2007, 03:33:42 PM »
Royals didn't marry for love.  This was an arranged marriage.  They barely knew each other.  I am sure she's resting in peace, a we are all forgiven by God.  The marriage ended in divorce in 1935, so she ceased to be a queen, even in exile.   We are all saints, actually.

True beauty is not external.  Focusing on the external beauty is rather shallow ... inside, she had little beauty ... she was not interested in charity, all she wanted was to be rich, very rich.  She didn't care who she hurt.  She betrayed and stabbed people in back.  Her own family could not trust her.  In the late 1930s, she was back in Romania, living the high life, with her banker as her main lover.  (He certainly helped Elisabetha fatten that bank account - which she lost in the end when she had to leave Romania.  It is not commendable that she got out with a few pieces of jewelery ... I would not be surprised if she had to sell those jewels because she had no income of her own. 

After her divorce, there were rumors that she was going to marry Scaviani

Her external beauty faded quickly.  Her mother would chastize her about not taking care with her appearance.

She underwent an operation after the miscarriage.  Most likely, it was a gynecological operation ..

I feel it is impromper to use such strong hateful language against Queen Elisabeth. She is long since dead, I think some, not a lot, but some respect should be shown and she should be able to rest in peace.

I'm sure there is another side to all this. She obviously was no saint, and made a lot of mistakes, but if you look at pictures of her when she was very young, she had such a beautiful and pure face, it's hard for me to believe she was all bad.

George must of loved her a bit to begin with or he would have refused to marry her. If all this is true what you say about her lack of friends and family at the end, and her alienation from them all, then she should be greatly pitied I think. I feel really sorry for her.  :'(

Where is she buried? Not at Tatoi I gather.

I know that Royals didn't marry for love in the modern sense. But often they were in love and did fall in love with each other. If they couldn't stand each other, they would refuse to marry them sometimes. I have read other people say that they were in love, and I think that was the case. Elisabeth was beautiful, the many pictures I posted demonstrated that. It's obvious that you hate Elisabeth, I feel quite unbiased about her actually. But I feel sympathy towards her because I know that she must have had other sides to her, and that she could have been likeable in some ways, even if she did make many mistakes and commit many sins. I know the marriage ended in divorce, but she was a reigning Queen for a time, so I think it is right to call her Queen Elisabeth, even if she did not die a Queen, she was a Queen. No we are not all saints, in the literal sense of the word.

I didn't say that true beauty is external, or that I was juding her by her looks solely or focusing on that solely, I am not shallow at all. I was trying to express that if you look into her face when she was a young girl/woman, she does not look like this singularly evil person you make her out to be. I think she was pretty lucky to be able to take ten pieces of jewelry with her into exile, since some royals could take nothing into exile, and many were murdered. She got off pretty lightly. Are you saying she had an operation on purpose so she couldn't become pregnant again? Maybe she had to have a hysterectomy. And are you saying Mignon was a lesbian? I personally think all of Marie's daughters were very beautiful and elegant, and I have never seen any of them look frumpy really.
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Offline Laura_

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #136 on: March 15, 2007, 03:40:59 PM »
the 3 daughters were  pretty as young princesses :)

Offline lori_c

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #137 on: March 15, 2007, 03:49:54 PM »
WOW.  I didn't know Mignon lived w/another woman for the rest of her life.  i know she was more comfortable w/herself in mannish clothes and certainly wasn't as glamorous as Missy.  I hope she found happiness in whatever capacity she lived w/this woman.  Was she as cruel and selfish as Elizabeth was?  Doing things like that to your family is certainly not something to be proud of. 

Certainly both women rebelled against their arranged marriages but in different ways.  I was seriously under the impression though, that George really wanted Elizabeth and that she only said yes after a long time of his persistence. 

It's hard to imagine someone as wonderful as Queen Marie (and I'm sure she had her flaws but I think she's wonderful) could have such children.  Somehow, didn't they do some redeeming things?

Marlene, I bow to your knowledge as always.
P.S., your book about QV Descendants is a non circulating book in my library.  I'll be on the lookout to buy! ;)

Offline Marlene

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #138 on: March 15, 2007, 03:59:51 PM »
You might want to take off the rose-colored glasses.  I have spent more than a quarter of a century studying the descendants of of Queen Victoria, and have written extensively on various descendants.  Members of the Romanian royal family have not made complimentary remarks about the late Elisabetha.  

I can assure you that George and Elisabetha were never in love, and that the marriage was arranged, and was not a success.  The two barely knew each other ... and the couple went into exile only a few years later.  

You are also rather naive (but you did you say you were 17 or so so that's understandable). You need to spend at least 25 more years doing a lot of research to really understand.  And I am still learning.  

By the late 1920s, Elisabetha had gained weight, and lost her looks

Elisabetha became seriously ill during her pregnancy, and the baby was lost ... perhaps surgery had to remove the fetus -- and it is entirely possible that she had to undergo a hysterectomy at this time due to the issues.

Officials photos tend to show people in the best situations ... Mignon was never elegant, except in glossed up photos.   I've got photos of her from late in life -- as well in books - and she was rather unattractive, rather overweight,  paid no attention to her face or figure, wore mannish clothing, and lived with a woman ...

I think that is descriptive enough.

I don't hate Elisabetha. It is not a matter of hating ... it is a matter, however, of actually knowing about these people -- and Marie's kids -- they got the short end of the stick when it came to parents.  All were screwed up.  All had problems.  Carol, Elisabetha, Ileana, and Marie all had arranged marriages ... all the marriages failed.  

Elisabetha never reigned ... she was the consort.  Her husband reigned.

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Offline lori_c

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #139 on: March 15, 2007, 04:05:46 PM »
Marlene,

Hopefully you weren't replying to my posts offensively.  I'm certainly not 17 and I was seriously asking questions about the family because  I really don't know and am truly anxious to learn.

I am an admirer of your work and your knowledge and was only asking.

Lori

Offline Marlene

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #140 on: March 15, 2007, 04:08:50 PM »
Mignon was not a cruel person in the same manner as her sister.  She certainly care for Yugoslavia, and kept in touch with the diaspora after exile.  But she too was not a good mother -- and her sons suffered for it.  No real parents.  She didn't want Peter to marry Alexandra (and she was probably right about that.)  She kept in touch with other family members and visited her aunt Bee in Spain.  I don't think she knew how to live in the real world ... her son, Peter, sadly had problems with this.  But they also didn't have money.  When  I was in Serbia in 2006,  I saw an exhibit on Alexander and Marie at Topola - so lots of glam photos, etc ... rather regal ... but that all changed after his death ... and these sort of photos do not tell the true story.

George saw Elisabetha as an eligible princess - similar in age, allegedly in interests too ...his mother who knew better (Sophie was a much smarter woman than most people think) and knew that marriages with her cousins' kids were not going to last ... but she also did not encourage the match with Zia Torby because of the morganatic status ... on the other hand, Zia's father Grand Duke Michael did not want his children to make foreign matches.  Zia, I think, would have made a good consort for George.  


I need to ask Ted to send me more books now that I have finally moved so once I get them, I will start selling again on Ebay and Amazon.

WOW.  I didn't know Mignon lived w/another woman for the rest of her life.  i know she was more comfortable w/herself in mannish clothes and certainly wasn't as glamorous as Missy.  I hope she found happiness in whatever capacity she lived w/this woman.  Was she as cruel and selfish as Elizabeth was?  Doing things like that to your family is certainly not something to be proud of. 

Certainly both women rebelled against their arranged marriages but in different ways.  I was seriously under the impression though, that George really wanted Elizabeth and that she only said yes after a long time of his persistence. 

It's hard to imagine someone as wonderful as Queen Marie (and I'm sure she had her flaws but I think she's wonderful) could have such children.  Somehow, didn't they do some redeeming things?

Marlene, I bow to your knowledge as always.
P.S., your book about QV Descendants is a non circulating book in my library.  I'll be on the lookout to buy! ;)
Author of Queen Victoria's Descendants,
& publisher of Royal Book News.
Visit my blog, Royal Musings  http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/

Offline lori_c

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #141 on: March 15, 2007, 04:20:58 PM »
Thanks Marlene!

My library leaves much to be desired.

I am so glad to know Mignon was not as self absorbed and selfish as Elisabeth.  But it is sad that Missy's children didn't share her spirit of  and infectious warmth and sparkle.  By earlier pictures, Mignon looks so much like her mother that you would think her personality the same. 

Elisabeth certainly wasn't.  Or Karol.  I know that Illeana became Mother Alexandra later on in life.  Did she at least embody something of Queen Marie? 

I had read in Zeepvat's Camera and the Tsar's that Elizabeth had a rather nasty personality, but it made it sound like George was long sufferiing because of his inconsiderate and selfish wife.  Was it both of them?  Or was it the fact that it was arranged and they both resented it? 

Many arranged marriages becoome love matches later.  Apparently that isn't the case with her.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #142 on: March 15, 2007, 05:51:32 PM »
WOW.  I didn't know Mignon lived w/another woman for the rest of her life. 

I had posted this in a couple different Balkan threads:

I'd written this on a long-ago thread:

"I'm not sure of the exact date but the book says by 1938 she was settled in England and found herself a house. Old Mill House was located in Grandsden near Cambridge and was a 5-bedroom cottage furnished very sparsely. She would move around 1943-44 to a house near Leatherhead. Despite her very simple lifestyle Mignon was a millionaire with a private jewelry collection and a monthly stipend from the Yugoslav government. Sharing the home with her was Mrs Rosemary Creswell whom King Peter (her son) described as his mother's 'old school friend'. Mignon, now out of the public eye, began to take less care with her appearance becoming even more stout and rather sloppy. She cropped her hair very short, seldom put on dresses (preferring a tent-like garment) and usually wore moccasins. She also I guess tired of Mignon and wanted to be called 'Paiky' (don't ask me why). Her days were rather uneventful: wake late, breakfast in bed, stay there good part of the day alternating between dozing, reading, writing letters and smoking. She would go down for dinner about 7:30 and afterwards settle down with another huge box of ciggies to play cards or talk. She apparently inherited her mother's gift for gab even though her speech was blunter and lacking Missy's poetic turn of phrase. She had her 2 youngest boys in British schools and would occasionally visit Peter in Yugoslavia (being there when Germany invaded Poland ). After the Revolution overthrew her teenage son, Marie saw him for the first time in 2 years when he arrived an exile in England. As he was just 18 she packed him off to Cambridge and gave him a room above her garage for the occasional visit home (for which he had to pay rent). Not long after, Peter fell in love with Queen Sophie of Greece's granddaughter Alexandra and Mignon went to London to meet her but was very unhappy with the situation for a variety of reasons--political and maternal. Nonetheless the couple became engaged and Mignon did all she could to prevent the marriage (and was supported in this by the government-in-exile). During one meeting between the young couple and Mignon (during which she didn't get out of bed) there was an incredibly horrid blow-up with all sorts of hostility and recrimination bubbling up. It got so bad that Princess Alexandra called her mother to talk to an increasingly out-of-control Mignon who merely continued her tirade into the phone. Peter eventually stormed out with Alexandra and a week later they married at the Yugoslav Embassy with a variety of royals in attendance save for the groom's mother (giving out the excuse of a toothache which doubtless fooled no one). They newlyweds didn't see Mignon for 8 mos later when Peter decided his wife was entitled to the famous emeralds (the ones that were Ella's?) located in a British bank and needing Mignon's to open the safety deposit box. Mignon met them in London at a small home she kept and they were ushered into her presence by Mrs Creswell. Having abandoned her tents for the rather mannish outfit of a khaki uniform (self-designed) she had accessorized with a Sam Browne belt with a revolver. (!!) Mignon had no words of greeting, just a nod of the head. Alexandra, newly pregnant and increasingly stressed by the tension in the room asked permission to sit down giving her pregnancy as the reason. Despite thus having found out she'd be a grandmother, Mignon merely growled for her to sit and returned to what she was doing. I don't know if they met after that or were in contact as Peter & Alexandra's marriage deteriorated. Mignon moved again after the war to a 450 acre farm at Cranbook in Kent where her 2 younger sons joined her. Her life became even more simple. This home had 6 rooms, a stone floor and no electricity. She cooked on an old-fashioned stove and played her card games by gaslight. From tents to wartime uniform, she now chose to dress in very British tweeds and brogues and supervised the activities of her farm. One of the few public appearances of her later years was in 1959 (when she was 60) at a service in Paris marking the 25th annivesary of her husband's assassination. By now her health was deteriorating and she had lost a good deal of weight and was looking rather ill. She died 2 years later in 1961 n London. A funeral service was held at the SErbian Orthodox Church there and the chief mourner was her son Peter II."

The bulk of the info can be found in Grandmama of Europe by Theo Aronson. Great book.

I don't want to divert this thread though--there's a long-dormant thread on Mignon in the Balkan forum if anyone wants to 'bump' it up.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 05:57:56 PM by grandduchessella »
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #143 on: March 15, 2007, 08:54:45 PM »
Yes. we should go back to Elisabetta.

No I think George was in love with Elisabetta. I found the interest mention in both Missy's & Elisabetta's letters. John Wimbles (a reseacher who never fails to amaze me by the stuff he found in the Romanian archievs) articles on Elisabetta was the most definite one (also a fair one too). One can find it in old Royalty Digest back issues. A most vital addition to any serious researcher.

Elisabetta began her life as a girl spoiled by her grandmother Infanta Antonia. She was deemed pretty at a young age and slowly became a self-centered and lazy being. However at that point she was still a girl trying to be good (as she did her nursing work during the war). There are many references that George being in love with Elisabetta. The fact that Elisabetta refused him at least twice indicated her genuine feeling. She wrote to her mother saying that she admired George but honestly cannot see herself as a wife for George. However George and Missy persisted and Elisabetta decided to make a go go out of it. I do doubt Sophie was happy about the match as her later attitute to Elisabetta showed otherwise. Elisabetta went in the Greek Royal Family with fond hopes. They were soon dashed when they have dinner togather, they all spoke Greek. Elisabetta felt exculded and lonely with the bunch (George was station off soon after the wedding). I guess in this condition, one cannot help but brew recentment over this treatment. The only person who were kind to her was Princess Nicholas of Greece and her sister-in-law Helen. Elisabetta was also not given any jewels by her mother-in-law ("She wouldn't even let me be alone with them"). In which even Missy fumed "At least I have given HER daughter (meaning Helen) a tiara".

No I don't think she was born bad, but cirmustancial helped to push her off the edge. If she gave people no breaks, because nobody had given her any. Once she got rich by her father's will, she began to do things HER way. With that inheitance and those came through her from George (jewels curtesy of Queen Olga...eg. emeralds). She did not need to sit and beg. That she became more reckless as times go by there is no doubt. However one would also ask, without her inheritance from her father, could she had the financial freedom to do whatever she wished ? One cannot say.

Offline basilforever

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #144 on: March 16, 2007, 03:18:20 AM »
Yes well Eric is putting a different perspective on these issues than Marlene, and I am more inclined to believe him as he does not seem so biased. I actually don't have any rose-coloured glasses to take off, I will make no apologies about which royals appeal to me and which don't. I know you have spent many years studying royals, but that does not make you infallible or someone to be ''bowed down to."  ::) I have studied historiography and I know how much the author's agenda, personal experience and bias influence their writing of history, whether they acknowledge it or not. I am aware that members of the Romanian Royal Family have said bad things about Elisabeth and I'm sure that has influenced you, that doesn't mean other people can't have other opinions. Of course it also doesn't mean that the members of the R.R.F who said these things are wrong. As for assuring me that George didn't love Elisabeth - others say otherwise, I'm not going to say I know for sure, but I don't feel comfortable taking your word for it. And no, I am not naive, and nor am I 17. I don't know where you got that from, but I never said that. I am in my twenties. And no I don't need to spend 25 more years doing a lot of research before I can really understand, that is offending anyone here under the age of 25, and I know I'm not the only person on the boards under that age. I don't know how you can accuse me of being superficial by mentioning that Elisabeth was beautiful when she was young, but then go on about Elisabeth and Mignon's looks and apparently judging them because they gained weight, etc. were not overly interested in being glamourous, etc. Who cares? As long as they were comfortable with it, then that's fine. That's very sad what happened to Elisabeth during her pregnancy.

Quote
Elisabetha never reigned ... she was the consort.  Her husband reigned.

That's what I meant, her husband reigned as King, and she was his Queen Consort for a time when he was reigning.



« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 03:22:26 AM by basilforever »
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Offline basilforever

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #145 on: March 16, 2007, 03:25:52 AM »
Quote
Elisabetta went in the Greek Royal Family with fond hopes. They were soon dashed when they have dinner togather, they all spoke Greek.

That's happened to me many times, everyone speaking Greek around me and me not understanding much of it. Elisabeth should have asked them to speak English around her if they could and she could, or else she should have tried to learn Greek, or pick up a few words like I have.  :)
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #146 on: March 16, 2007, 05:58:41 AM »
Sophie was certainly nasty towards Elisabetta. On the other hand, although they have arguments and disagreements, Helen and Missy were able to establish a kind of relationship based on mutual respect. Missy greatly loved Helen's gift of minicing others (including herself).

I am not trying to say that Elisabetta was a nice woman. She had her faults, but in the begining she wanted to be good and be loved. However the years of war and attitude of others ruin it for her and George. The fact that they were on opposite sides during the divorce of Carol & Helen didn't help matters. Once Elisabetta got her money, she began to do as she pleased and cared about nobody. It was a bitter life with many dissapointments (but much of which she contributed herself).

Offline trentk80

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #147 on: March 16, 2007, 06:05:35 AM »
I have spent more than a quarter of a century studying the descendants of of Queen Victoria, and have written extensively on various descendants.

And part of what you have written is unreliable, Marlene. Should I remind you that what your book Queen Victoria's descendants says about Baby Bee's treachery towards Ena is inaccurate, as you once admitted? It's odd considering that you have spent more than a quarter of a century studying the subject.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 06:11:28 AM by trentk80 »
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #148 on: March 16, 2007, 06:10:18 AM »
Well...I think Marlene corrected herself in the Baby Bee thread that after more research her earlier statement about the relationship between Bee & Ena wasn't valid. We all stand to be corrected.  ;)

Offline trentk80

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #149 on: March 16, 2007, 07:22:03 AM »
However the fact remains that Marlene's original research on Baby Bee was not good enough. Likewise, I think John Wimbles' research on Elisabeta is much more reliable.
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