Author Topic: King George II & Queen Elizabeth (nee Romania)  (Read 208125 times)

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Offline Iskenderbey

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #150 on: March 16, 2007, 09:21:13 AM »
I think I have to agree with Marlene on this one.

By 1921, George remained unmarried and there was no heir to the throne.  King Constantine's return to the throne in 1920 created a strong urgency on the part of George that he had to hurry up and get married and produce an heir, considering there shaky hold on the throne at the time.

While there is some evidence that George was probably fond of his new wife, I doubt he was bent over heels for her, and that this was indeed an arranged marriage, and especially important within the Balkan sphere of things, and with a fellow Orthodox nation to bat.

Furthermore, the Greek royal family had become a pariah for various reasons to the rest of "Allied" Europe.
They couldn't exactly go hunting for brides in Germany (recently defeated), or Britain/France (despised my poor King Tino) for that matter.

So George & Elisabeth's marriage seemed quite advantageous for all sides involved....and not to mention Queen Marie was besides herself with the fact that she would become the grandmama of the Balkans. 

Regards to all!


However the fact remains that Marlene's original research on Baby Bee was not good enough. Likewise, I think John Wimbles' research on Elisabeta is much more reliable.

Offline Marlene

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #151 on: March 16, 2007, 01:15:20 PM »
Lori

I was not referring to you.

thank you for the kind words

Marlene,

Hopefully you weren't replying to my posts offensively.  I'm certainly not 17 and I was seriously asking questions about the family because  I really don't know and am truly anxious to learn.

I am an admirer of your work and your knowledge and was only asking.

Lori
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Offline Marlene

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #152 on: March 16, 2007, 01:29:09 PM »
I stand corrected on your age.  Not that long ago, I believe you may have said you were a teenager.  No one is infallible, not even the Bishop of Rome.

However, I do think people who are more concerned with how someone looks in a photo or what jewels they had or took with them have no real understanding of personalities.

It is obvious you have never read John Wiimbles' articles on Elisabetha. You should.  You would learn even more.  Have you read Hannah Pakula's bio on Marie.  More good stuff on Elisabetha.  Eric has only quoted or referred to a miniscule part of the series.   If you are truly interested in Elisabetha, you should take on more research.  Read these articles, read what was written about her  ... I suspect members of the Romanian royal family, especially King Michael, would know more about Elisabetha than most folks.   She was his aunt.  He had first hand experience of her treachery and betrayal.

I think you can purchase back issues from Royalty Digest.  I have copies of the articles, of course, but I cannot make copies for you as I do not own the copyright. 

If you want a good laugh, read Elisabeth's obit in The Times.  However, it was common place for obituary writers for the main British papers, to write glowing copy about the recently deceased.

Well, George may have been king but he was the king in name only ... the political situation at the time was extremely difficult, and no one expected George to survive in that climate.  And, he didn't.   The divorce was most likely a mutual decision, even though Elisabetha did the filing.  It is no coincidence that the filing was only a few months before George's restoration.  Elisabetha did not want to go back to Greece as queen.

 c
Yes well Eric is putting a different perspective on these issues than Marlene, and I am more inclined to believe him as he does not seem so biased. I actually don't have any rose-coloured glasses to take off, I will make no apologies about which royals appeal to me and which don't. I know you have spent many years studying royals, but that does not make you infallible or someone to be ''bowed down to."  ::) I have studied historiography and I know how much the author's agenda, personal experience and bias influence their writing of history, whether they acknowledge it or not. I am aware that members of the Romanian Royal Family have said bad things about Elisabeth and I'm sure that has influenced you, that doesn't mean other people can't have other opinions. Of course it also doesn't mean that the members of the R.R.F who said these things are wrong. As for assuring me that George didn't love Elisabeth - others say otherwise, I'm not going to say I know for sure, but I don't feel comfortable taking your word for it. And no, I am not naive, and nor am I 17. I don't know where you got that from, but I never said that. I am in my twenties. And no I don't need to spend 25 more years doing a lot of research before I can really understand, that is offending anyone here under the age of 25, and I know I'm not the only person on the boards under that age. I don't know how you can accuse me of being superficial by mentioning that Elisabeth was beautiful when she was young, but then go on about Elisabeth and Mignon's looks and apparently judging them because they gained weight, etc. were not overly interested in being glamourous, etc. Who cares? As long as they were comfortable with it, then that's fine. That's very sad what happened to Elisabeth during her pregnancy.

Quote
Elisabetha never reigned ... she was the consort.  Her husband reigned.

That's what I meant, her husband reigned as King, and she was his Queen Consort for a time when he was reigning.




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Offline Marlene

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #153 on: March 16, 2007, 01:32:02 PM »
Sophie was not pleased with the two marriages with two of Missy's kids .... she tried to warn Helen, to no avail - and helen got pregnant before the wedding.

Sophie was certainly nasty towards Elisabetta. On the other hand, although they have arguments and disagreements, Helen and Missy were able to establish a kind of relationship based on mutual respect. Missy greatly loved Helen's gift of minicing others (including herself).

I am not trying to say that Elisabetta was a nice woman. She had her faults, but in the begining she wanted to be good and be loved. However the years of war and attitude of others ruin it for her and George. The fact that they were on opposite sides during the divorce of Carol & Helen didn't help matters. Once Elisabetta got her money, she began to do as she pleased and cared about nobody. It was a bitter life with many dissapointments (but much of which she contributed herself).
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Offline Marlene

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #154 on: March 16, 2007, 01:33:42 PM »
Yes, I changed my view on Baby Bee and Ena (see the new book on them, to which I contributed) - but I should add, Trent dear, that there are other writers out there who still think that Baby Bee (who happens to be a favorite of mine) caused a lot of problems at the Spanish court.

I have spent more than a quarter of a century studying the descendants of of Queen Victoria, and have written extensively on various descendants.

And part of what you have written is unreliable, Marlene. Should I remind you that what your book Queen Victoria's descendants says about Baby Bee's treachery towards Ena is inaccurate, as you once admitted? It's odd considering that you have spent more than a quarter of a century studying the subject.
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Offline Marlene

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #155 on: March 16, 2007, 01:37:40 PM »
I should add that I am a good friend of one of Baby Bee's granddaughters - and she too was well aware of the stories about her grandmother ... so I am not the only one ... you will still find it.  Nor have I ever said anything about John's research.  His articles were fabulous -- but there is a lot more to the story of Elisabetha ...

Should I ever write another article on Baby Bee, I would write it differently.  I attended a lecture by Robert Massie a few years ago, and he admitted that he had gotten things wrong, as well ...

Of course, Trent, I am sure you are -- like Mary Poppins - practically perfect in every way ... and have every resource imagineable ...
However the fact remains that Marlene's original research on Baby Bee was not good enough. Likewise, I think John Wimbles' research on Elisabeta is much more reliable.
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #156 on: March 16, 2007, 01:44:30 PM »

Of course, Trent, I am sure you are -- like Mary Poppins - practically perfect in every way ... and have every resource imagineable ...

Of course he's not. I don't remember him claiming to be.  ???
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Offline basilforever

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #157 on: March 16, 2007, 01:52:41 PM »
I stand corrected on your age.  Not that long ago, I believe you may have said you were a teenager.  No one is infallible, not even the Bishop of Rome.

However, I do think people who are more concerned with how someone looks in a photo or what jewels they had or took with them have no real understanding of personalities.

It is obvious you have never read John Wiimbles' articles on Elisabetha. You should.  You would learn even more.  Have you read Hannah Pakula's bio on Marie.  More good stuff on Elisabetha.  Eric has only quoted or referred to a miniscule part of the series.   If you are truly interested in Elisabetha, you should take on more research.  Read these articles, read what was written about her  ... I suspect members of the Romanian royal family, especially King Michael, would know more about Elisabetha than most folks.   She was his aunt.  He had first hand experience of her treachery and betrayal.

I think you can purchase back issues from Royalty Digest.  I have copies of the articles, of course, but I cannot make copies for you as I do not own the copyright. 

If you want a good laugh, read Elisabeth's obit in The Times.  However, it was common place for obituary writers for the main British papers, to write glowing copy about the recently deceased.

Well, George may have been king but he was the king in name only ... the political situation at the time was extremely difficult, and no one expected George to survive in that climate.  And, he didn't.   The divorce was most likely a mutual decision, even though Elisabetha did the filing.  It is no coincidence that the filing was only a few months before George's restoration.  Elisabetha did not want to go back to Greece as queen.



Yes well a couple of years ago I was 19 and may have written that, but now I'm not. I really must insist that it should make absolutely no difference how old I, or anybody else here is, all posters deserve respect regardless of age. I'm not a Catholic, so I won't take offense about the Pope comment, although it is a matter of faith of course.

Quote
However, I do think people who are more concerned with how someone looks in a photo or what jewels they had or took with them have no real understanding of personalities.

That is offensive. I do of course have a very real understanding of personalities and I am not more concerned with how someone looks in a photo or what jewels they had than everything else. It seems that you also have a concern or interest in looks as you frequently mention the supposedly deteriorating looks of Elisabeth and Mignon, etc. etc. And a person not being filled with the utmost concern for keeping up their appearance doesn't necessarily reflect badly on their personality. I agree I should read more about what has been written about Queen Elisabeth and I intend to do so. I did read part of the Wimbles's series ages ago when it was posted on the board but it has since been removed. I would like to read Elisabeth's obituary as it would be refreshing to read something positive about her. I truly believe that there is a whole other way to look at Elisabeth and what she did. She was probably a very sad and confused woman. Yes I know when Elisabeth was Queen when her husband was King, it was very difficult politically, but they were still King and Queen. The obituary would not make me laugh, I would be happy to see someone writing about her with some proper respect.
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Offline trentk80

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #158 on: March 16, 2007, 03:41:47 PM »
It is obvious you have never read John Wiimbles' articles on Elisabetha. You should.  You would learn even more.  Have you read Hannah Pakula's bio on Marie.  More good stuff on Elisabetha.  Eric has only quoted or referred to a miniscule part of the series.   If you are truly interested in Elisabetha, you should take on more research.  Read these articles, read what was written about her  ...

Elisabeta was certainly a difficult person, made many mistakes and paid for them but she wasn't the evil monster you pretend her to be either, she also had a good side. And I think this after having read both John Wimbles' articles on her and Hannah Pakula's bio on Marie. I think John Wimbles' articles give a good insight into Elisabeta's life. As basilforever said, it is obvious that you are biased and that you personally dislike Elisabeta and I noticed this since a long time ago. Everytime someone said the slightest good thing about her, you were always the first one to say "no, she was nasty, etc.". The question is why? A reflection on your own life perhaps?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 03:54:18 PM by trentk80 »
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Offline lori_c

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #159 on: March 16, 2007, 04:57:14 PM »
Lori

I was not referring to you.

thank you for the kind words

Marlene,

Hopefully you weren't replying to my posts offensively.  I'm certainly not 17 and I was seriously asking questions about the family because  I really don't know and am truly anxious to learn.

I am an admirer of your work and your knowledge and was only asking.

Lori
Marlene,

Whew!  Thanks.  I didn't know if it was my post that you were referring to.  I find any information on Elisabeta fascinating, as nasty as she was.  She still was part of a Royal History long gone by. (As well as all of the Romanian Royal Family) Thank you for your fascinating information and unending research.

Lori

Offline Janet_W.

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #160 on: March 16, 2007, 05:05:33 PM »
[I have received the warning that a new reply has been posted since I was composing this, but I shall throw caution to the wind and submit it anyway!]

There is a quote, attributed to Fontaine, which goes something like this: "Each man is three men: How he sees himself, how others see him, and who he really is."

This ongoing discussion/power struggle about Elisabeta might seem trivial to many . . . and, from certain points of view, I'd have to agree.

But for many of us it boils down to this: What is personality? Are we born with it? Is it formed, say, by the first five years? Are we doomed by matters of genetics and/or environment? Do we have free will?

I, too, have wondered about Elisabeta. I've read either negative or noncommital/cryptic remarks about her in every publication I've accessed that covered, briefly or in a bit more detail, the arc of her (rightly or wrongly) disparaged life. And BTW, I've noted that alone of her immediate family, Elisabeta is missing from the photos taken during the summer 1914 visit of the Romanovs.

Here's where I become personal. I detested being with my family when I was a teenager and often stayed home. Why? Partly because I had raging hormones and wanted to be with people my own age. Partly because I was suffering from severe acne and felt embarrassed to be in public. But in very large part because my family was what I now have the vocabulary to say dysfunctional. For one thing, my mother--whom I loved very much, but definitely was a strong and self-involved personality--was very much about image, i.e., "Let's put up a good front," her typical clarion call. Conversely, though, she wasn't above verbally abusing my father in front of family friends, and he--in turn--occasionally issued "I'm just kidding" verbal riptostes to her. Those of you who've gone through this with your own parents know what I'm talking about . . . how the mere fact of a long-term marriage does not necessarily indicate happiness. And we won't even get into the unctuous behavior of my sibling, but that I have for many years refered to her as such might give you an indication of the status of our [non]relationship.

So this is what I am saying: Whether some people are simply born bad--Hitler? the fictional children from "The Bad Seed" and "The Omen"?--or are negatively and irreparably damaged by their surroundings, or choose of their own free will to be a saint or a sinner, I am not certain. But Elisabeta, who apparently lived a life not well-lived, is certainly a subject worth studying, if only so we do not ourselves bring forth future Elisabetas.

A friend of mine once said that "everyone has a different set of parents." He was from a family of ten, so I figure he knew what he was talking about! What he was saying was that birth order often has a great deal to do with personality, not always because of the birth order itself but because of where the parents were in their own lives when they conceived, gave birth, and brought up each child.

Despite the individual virtues of Nando and Marie, I have to think their unhappy marriage bore predictable fruit. That Elisabeta took a particular route in dealing--or not dealing--with the discord all about her also seems predictable. I would very much respect the input of any child psychologist--or, for that matter, psychologists--who could offer their professional opinions on what causes a child to "go bad," using--if enough information is available--the example of Elisabeta.

And in the meantime--in the interest of civility, if not character building--I wonder if we could all consider, before we post our comments, what we say and how it might be perceived by others. None of us here should be above what is often referred to as The Golden Rule.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #161 on: March 16, 2007, 05:09:32 PM »
Can we keep personal comments about other posters to PMs please and keep to the discussion about Elizabeth and not other forum members? 
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Offline basilforever

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #162 on: March 17, 2007, 05:17:53 AM »
Very good post Janet W and also Trentk80. Elisabetha is indeed a fascinating woman, a fascinating Queen, who I'm sure was not the total evil monster some have made her out to be.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2007, 05:25:11 AM by basilforever »
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: King Georg II & Queen Elisabeth
« Reply #163 on: March 18, 2007, 08:16:13 PM »
Indeed ! I agree with Marlene that my take on Elisabetta was only a snipet of John Wimbles's excellent article. It was well written and fair to the young Elisabetta. However she did turn into a witch as her years of frustation (a result of her own nature no doubt, but also other people (like Queen Sophie) given her no breaks). In the end, she lashed out at evverybody including her one-time-friend Helen. My only point was that she did not started out that way, but develpoed into something worse as times goes by.  ::)

Offline Yseult

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Elisabeth as queen
« Reply #164 on: October 26, 2007, 02:59:19 PM »
Hello! I was reading an old thread focused on Georgios and Lisavetta, and I became curious...
I know that Lisavetta was queen only for a short time, but I really want to know how she was in her role of queen consort. When she began her "greek life", for sure she felt isolated into the inner circle of the court and a strange in the new country, but...how she managed the situation since her husband was proclaimed king of the hellenes? Did she tried to play a role?
Thanks in advance for any help.