The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary

[Eurohistory]

thank you...

 Antonia brought with her the Catholic religion, lots of money, and ... buuuhhh... the Curse....buuuhhh...

The "curse" being?

Arturo Beéche

[Eurohistory]

Yes..it means like the Tecks, that particular Coburg line also have Hungarian blood. It makes them more interesting and of course rich...

The Tecks were as poor as poor can be in royal terms. Franz Teck's marriage to Mary Cambridge was a stroke of luck, if you can believe this, in monetary and dynastic matters.

The Kohary family were, along with the Esterhazy, one of the most powerful landed nobles in the old Austrian Empire.  In fact, Ferdinand Coburg, a poor second son, hit the jackpot when marrying Antonia Kohary!

Arturo Beéche

[Eurohistory]

I haven't seen Antonia's portrait, but I'm guessing she had a big nose  , all her children had that characteristic...though it might have been inherited from their grand-mama Duchess Auguste (née Gfn Reuss-Ebersdorf), but I'm more into the first supposition because Auguste's children had more 'soft' faces...

This physical feature had little to do with Antonia Konhary and much to thank Clementine d'Orléans.

Arturo Beéche

[Eurohistory]

I have heard she died young too...right ? 

Antonia Kohary was  65 years old when she died in Vienna in 1862. The age does not seem old to us, but  a century and a half ago that was not as young as we consider it to be today.

Arturo Beéche

[Eurohistory]

I believe so...but probably by then the Kohary wealth was more divided, because Pr Auguste and Clémentine also had other children beside August (Leopoldina's huisband)...

When Victoire Coburg married the Duc de Nemours she received a considerably sized dowry. Her descendants had no claims to the Kohary fortune.

August and Clementine Coburg's three sons were all recipients of shares of the Kohary inheritance.  Their sisters Clotilde and Amalie were also given considerable dowries when they married Archduke Josef of Austria and Duke Max Emanuel in Bavaria.

Philipp of Coburg was in control of the largest share of the Kohary inheritance. At his death in 1921, his nephews, the children of his brother Ludwig August and his own brother Ferdinand of Bulgaria went to task trying to get a bigger share of the pie. Philipp's only surviving child, Dorothea Augustenburg, and her uncle and cousins had to settle. However, by 1921 the inheritance was no longer all in Austria. ONe could find Kohary properties all over Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Austria, literally from the Alps to the Carpathians.  Large properties were also nationalized by the new governments that succeeded the Habsburg realm, which was terrible for the Coburgs of course...Republicans and anti-monarchists and their penchant for taking what is not theirs.

Arturo Beéche

[Eurohistory]

Hi Bernardino

This is what I know only:

Prince Rainer (1900-1945) was murdered on 7 Jan 1945, in Budapest (tomorrow will be the 61st years after his death!  )

His mother Pss Carolina was murdered on 12 May 1945, at Budapest by the Soviet Army.

Sources:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00014648&tree=LEO
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00023750&tree=LEO

Nonsense...Maria Karoline of Austria-Tuscany was not killed by the Communists. She died of natural causes at the end of the war. This was a rumor started by an old English genealogists who is no longer among us...but as wrong as his ego was endowed.

Arturo Beéche

[Eurohistory]

Wonder how much the book will cost ? Can we get it on Amazon ? 

I have been in contact with the author for several years. The book has suffered many delays...trust me when I say that this is common...as a publisher I know the travails we go through some times to get a blessed book to print.

The book, as it is to be published by a company we represent in the USA, will be available through www.eurohistory.com as all of Racine's books are.


Arturo Beéche

[krone99]

I am hoping someone can enlighten me with some answers regarding the family Sachsen-Coburg-Koháry
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1. Did the monarchs of Portugal of the dynasty of Sajonia-Coburgo e Bragança maintained their position as titular heads of the Austro-Hungarian (Catholic) branch of the House of Wettin (Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha) also known as "Koháry"

The family of Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha (Koháry) in Austria is "independent", and has its own head (currently Prince Johannes Heinrich) but does not constitute its own house; it is in fact a branch of the House of Wettin (Guelphs). As far as I know until the death of D. Manuel II his rights in the Hungarian Magnates' House were deputised to their cousins who became the actual holders of the rights after 1932. The first one being Prince Peter.

2.Did the title of "Prince (German: Fürst/Hungarian: herceg) Koháry de Csábrág et Szitnya" pass down up to the present line after the death of Princess Mária Antónia?

     The marriage agreement between Prince Ferdinand von Sachsen-Coburg-Saarfeld and    Princess Mária Antónia does not mention anything in this regard, nonetheless several    prominent historians name Prince Ferdinad as "founder" of the branch of "Sachsen-Coburg-   Koháry". Wikipedia also mentions the princely title when writing about his heirs. Apparently    none of these princes ever die in either Slowakia or Hungary, so I haven't been able to    control which name they used in these countries.

     Prince Ferdinand further became Hungarian subject of King Ferenc I (Kaiser Franz) when    he was given the Crown lands that belonged to the Kohárys exclusively in the male line as a    gift, but did his heirs continue to be Hungarian subjects? Prince Johannnes Heinrich, the    present family head was born and has lived all his live in Tirol. Nevertheless his father    Prince Rainer married twice to Hungarian ladies, lived and died in Hungary. I haven't been    able to check which nationality he had when in Hungary but when he stayed in Vienna, he    did give "German Empire" (Deutsches Reich) as citizenship to the City Hall. Did he own     anything in present-day Slovakia?

   3. Under which name were these princes enrolled in the Hungarian Magnates's House    (Fõrendiház)? Were they represented as Princes "Szász-Koburg-Gotha",  "Koháry" or    ”Szász-Koburg-Koháry?

     4. Which properties in present-day Slovakia and Hungary belonged to Prince Rainer? The    forum has discussed properties of the Bulgarian royals there, but nothing regarding Prince    Rainer who was the titular head of the family? I wonder if after the collapse of the Empire    any of these princes took up Czechslovakian citizenship? I mean Prince Ferdinand Philipp,    Peter and Rainer.
   
     5. Does anyone know if Slovakia has chosen to obey as well the so-called "Beneš    Decrees"?

[Eurohistory]

Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Kohary line) lost his rights to the "majorat" that encompassed the Kohary inheritance upon marrying Maria II of Portugal. This "majorat" included the entailed properties of the Kohary family and is was destined to remain undivided and to go to the "head" of the SCG (Kohary line) family. This was done to avoid the constant division of the entailment generation after generation...what they could never think of was that it was to be undone by the bloody communists after 1945.

On the death of Prince Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha in 1851, the "majorat" was inherited by his son Prince August (1818-1881), the next brother of Ferdinand of Portugal. 

When August died the "majorat" was inherited by his eldest son Prince Philipp (1844-1921). Philipp's only son, Leopold (1878-1916) died before his father. Upoin Philipp's death in 1921 an argument ensued between his brother Ferdinand of Bulgaria and his nephew August Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha over the control of the "majorat" as Ferdinand wanted more properties to come under his control. Auust Leopold died the following year, leaving three sons: Rainer, Philipp and Ernst – and there was also Dorothea of Schleswig-Holstein, daughter and only surviving heiress of Philipp. Eventually a settlement was reached, but for the most part, the "bulk" of the Hungarian and Slovakian properties were left in the hands of Prince Rainer (1900-1945). Prince Philipp (1901-1985) and Prince Ersnt (1907-1978), Rainer's brothers, received Austrian properties. Philipp inherited the massive Coburg Palais in Vienna and the lands and castle of Walterskirchen, which his son Phillipp Jr. continues to own. Ersnt inherited the lands in Schladming (with schütsen schloß) and Gröbming (with a hunting villa). Lands and Castle Ebenthal were shared by all and what is left of that today Prince Philipp Jr farms and divides proceeds among several of the cousins.

Arturo Beéche

[krone99]

Mr. Bechée,

Thank you so much for your in-depth answer but do you know know the answer to any of my other questions? I knew Ferdinand recounced to his Kohary inheritance but NOT to the "Headship" of the Catholic line of the House of Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha (Koháry), or did he? Also your explanation forgets Prince Peter (1866-1934) who was the senior prince of the House after King Manuel II and Prince Ferdinand Philipp (1844-1921). According to Wikipedia he was Head of the House. Would you happened to know which properties especifically went to Prince Rainer? Unfortunately all I can find in Slovakia and Hungary are properties that had been torn down for a couple of centuries when he became Head of the family. In Hungary he apparently lived in a simple house when he was arrested by the communists. Was he citizen of Hungary or Czechoslovakia? During his residence in Vienna he noted "Deutsches Reich" as citizenship, yet the descendants of Prince Ferdinand von Sachsen-Coburg und Saarfeld were supposed to be Hungarian subjects...?

[Norbert]

Surely the founder of the Coburg fortune was the last Imperial Field Marshal Prince Friedrich Josias (who died 1815) and his great niece Juliane who married the Russian Heir Presumptive GD Constantine.

Does anyone have any details of his descendants the Barons Pfeiffer von Ehrenstein Rohmann?

I understood that Philipp of S-C left his estate to Prince Cyril in 1921 ?

Clothilde's son Archduke Joseph was appointed Regent of Hungary in August 1919 but was rejected by the Allies for Horthy. His sister ws married to Duc d'Orleans does anyone have any info on this marriage. I believe Orleans ended up in a mental institution.

[Eric_Lowe]

Did he ended up in a mental institution ? I didn't know...

[Eurohistory]

No such thing. The Duc d'Orléans died in 1926 without ever having entered or had the need for a mental institution despite the impossible life that his estranged wife Dorothea of Austria gave him.

Arturo Beéche

[Eurohistory]

Prince Peter August was safely put away in a mental institution as he went completely mad in the 1890s.

Some are confusing here the "majorat" (entailed property that went to the senior male line of this branch as long as he did not renounce, like Ferdinand of Portugal, or went insane, as Peter August - who by 191 had no idea of what was his name even) which included the Kohary inheritance and which was created to protect the fortune from being dispersed with Headship of House. The "Kohary" branch of the Coburg dynasty did not see itself as a separate dynasty. One thing is their vast wealth and myriad properties, another thing is their membership in the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha dynasty.

The Austrian branch of the Saxe-Coburg dynasty was NOT a separate house under the rubric of Saxe-Coburg-Kohary. The Head of the House of Saxe-Coburg was the Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Some historians, myself included, refer to this bracnh as "Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Kohary Line)" to differentiate it branch the main, Protestant line residing in Coburg and Gotha.

Arturo Beéche

[Eurohistory]

Surely the founder of the Coburg fortune was the last Imperial Field Marshal Prince Friedrich Josias (who died 1815) and his great niece Juliane who married the Russian Heir Presumptive GD Constantine.

Not really...The Field Marshall's fortune did not come to the main line after his death. Art collections and the Burglaßschloßen – future Coburg residence of the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Kohary Line) princes, reverted to the family. What happened to his money is not known to me...frankly have not paid much attention to it. But the Coburgs were not in financial abundance at the time anyhow.

Julianne's money did not go to her Coburg relations, but to the illegitimates she left behind...whatever there was anyhow.

Arturo Beéche