The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary

[Eurohistory]

I would not go as far as claiming that "the" children, but perhaps one of them, Louise, but then again she was forced into a marriage with a man who had a terrible reputation, and very likely was a sexual deviant.  Imagine the poor child at the age of sixteen being thrown into a marital bed with a man twice her age who had been a known philanderer in Vienna's most disreputable bordellos...on her very wedding night she ran from him after being raped by a frustrated husband who expect her to be in the know of things...one has to take pity on poor Louise.

That is not to give her a carte blanche to go off like she did, sign forged letters of credit with her sister Stephanie's name and just cause one of the most amazing scandals royal Europe had witnessed.  For that Louise deserves all responsibility, for at least not having carried on her double life with a minimum degree of decorum.

As for Stephanie...poor girl...married at seventeen to one of Philipp Coburg's closest pals, a man who was highly strung, disease ridden by then and who would eventually pass to her a dreaded venereal disease which would render her useless for the dynasty's ambitions...and all before she was even 20!

And then we have the ignored sister, Princess Clementine, the unwanted daughter, who served as buffer between her increasingly argumentative parents, who sacrificed an early marriage to a prince because her father considered the Imperial Family of France parvenus...and for years on and on, poor Clementine reamined loyal to her Victor until both her mother and father passed away and then, only then, with the support of her cousin King Albert I of the Belgians, she finally managed to marry her prince in 1910, only to see him die sixteen years later at the relatively young age of 63.

Arturo Beéche

[grandduchessella]

I guess I misspoke--I meant that they all had difficult hurdles--some not their fault, others personality defects. I should've said the family and its dynamics were messed up.

Stephanie had a bit of an ego problem (her autobiography is entertaining) and certainly her whole image nowadays is wrapped up with the Mayerling affair--and she usually gets the short end of the stick instead of the sympathy!

Louise we've gone into.

Clementine is actually one of my favorites due to her star-crossed love affair with Victor Napoleon. Her problems came from being a pawn between her parents and basically shackled to her father's side and forbidden to marry the man she loved until Leopold II died when she was in her 30s.

All of the children were treated pretty shabbily and weren't the girls (except maybe Clementine?) totally disinherited and then the matter dragged through court for years?

[Eurohistory]

Leopold II forbade the presence of Louise and Stephanie at his stranged wife's funeral...a ridiculous an vindictive action on his part against his daughters. And yes they diod have a long fight over the inheritance from Leopold II which dragged on for years, he having divested a lot of his fortune to a foundation in order to keep the money from his daughters.

The surviving princesses did receive some money from the inheritance left behind by their mad aunt Empress Charlotte of mexico, their father's sister, but by then Louise herself, destitute and broken in spirit had died in 1924, aged 66 years old.

Arturo Beéche

[bluetoria]

Thank you! I just didn't want to start discussing her if there was already another thread.
I was totally unaware of the details of her marriage, beyond knowing she was very unhappy but Arturo's graphic account explains it very clearly. Yet another v. unhappy princess - makes you think after so many appalling wedding nights for totally ignorant & innocent young girls (Marie Bonaparte, Missy, Ducky & who knows how many others who never mentioned it) that maybe Ella - if people's conjectures are correct - had a lucky escape, after all! Why did their mothers, who had presumably gone through the same 'shock' not warn them what to expect!! (And yet afterwards many found happiness with other partners...maybe it was just that some of the men were as ignorant as they were?)
She ran off, did she not, with a member of the household & was subsequently incarcerated in an asylum? Was she mentally unbalanced or was it simply to 'shut her up'? And what is meant by forging letters etc.?  

[Eurohistory]

Louise ran away from Vienna with her lover Count Mattachich and settled on the Mediterranean coast, where she proceeded to spend wildly, while plunging into a frivolous and debacuhed lifestyle.  When her husband stopped paying her mounting bills, Louise faced with a growing number of creditors knocking at her door, forged Stephanie's signature on letters of credit.  When these letters of credit were brought to the Hofburg for collection, the controller of the Imperial Purse contacted Franz Joseph, who confronted Stephanie who denied, vehemently, having signed any of these letters of credit.  It was then that they figured it had been Louise who forged Stephanie's signature.

Franz Joseph summoned Prince Philipp and demanded that he bring his errant wife to heed and seek honor from Mattachich.  A duel was fought, when Mattachich slightly injured Philipp's hand, honor was declared restored and Mattachich returned to Louise.  Almost destitute and hounded they left for his mother's estate, where they received no warm welcome. Soon enough Mattachich was apprehended for having been AWOL from his regiment and Louise was sent to a sanatorium for the mentally insane, where she was to spend several years.

Mother's back then were not comfortable talking to their children about sex...heaven's let's face it...parents in America today do not talk to their kids frankly about sex...it is our big taboo...we get sanctimonious and pissy about a two-second long nipple shot, which most of America missed, and we are going to sit with our kids and discuss sex when our leader believes the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies is abstinence?  SO, honestly, I think the taboo remains...sadly!  

Arturo Beéche

[Janet_W.]

. . . parents in America today do not talk to their kids frankly about sex...it is our big taboo...we get sanctimonious and pissy about a two-second long nipple shot, which most of America missed, and we are going to sit with our kids and discuss sex when our leader believes the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies is abstinence?!  
Arturo Beéche

Ha! Very funny, but all too true as well! Thanks, Arturo. (Though on second reading I'll have to add that I'm not so sure he truly believes it . . . it's more of a promotional thing.)

P.S. It's my icky birthday today  , but I just learned how to use the quote function  , so I guess I'm still capable of learning!  

[Eurohistory]

zapo verday 2 U...zapo verday 2 U...zapo verday dear Yanet!

Arturo Beéche

[grandduchessella]

Louise ran away from Vienna with her lover Count Mattachich and settled on the Mediterranean coast, where she proceeded to spend wildly, while plunging into a frivolous and debacuhed lifestyle.  When her husband stopped paying her mounting bills, Louise faced with a growing number of creditors knocking at her door, forged Stephanie's signature on letters of credit.  When these letters of credit were brought to the Hofburg for collection, the controller of the Imperial Purse contacted Franz Joseph, who confronted Stephanie who denied, vehemently, having signed any of these letters of credit.  It was then that they figured it had been Louise who forged Stephanie's signature.

Franz Joseph summoned Prince Philipp and demanded that he bring his errant wife to heed and seek honor from Mattachich.  A duel was fought, when Mattachich slightly injured Philipp's hand, honor was declared restored and Mattachich returned to Louise.  Almost destitute and hounded they left for his mother's estate, where they received no warm welcome. Soon enough Mattachich was apprehended for having been AWOL from his regiment and Louise was sent to a sanatorium for the mentally insane, where she was to spend several years.

and we are going to sit with our kids and discuss sex when our leader believes the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies is abstinence?  SO, honestly, I think the taboo remains...sadly!  
Arturo Beéche

Do you know what year she left? She must've been middle-aged since she's shown in the Coburg wedding photo in 1894. If it was before QV died, I wonder what her reaction would've been but somehow I think it was later.


Frankly, I think parents are getting more comfortable with it. There was just a Katie Couric special on NBC all about teens and sex. I've already had 'begiinner' talks with my daughter (who's now 10) and while I admit I thought I would be a lot 'hipper' about it, managed to muddle through ok.    Frankly though, the only foolproof way to prevent pregnancy IS abstinence unless you're the Virgin Mary.   Guiding children towards abstinence shouldn't be mocked--there are sound health, emotional and religious components to it. I agree that it should be an part of an overall comprehensive teaching but should definitely be stressed. I found it interesting in the special that when they talked to kids they found them a lot more _aware_ of sex and sexuality but were choosing to abstain (for a variety of reasons--including girl power!). So there was a comfort level in talking about it but a realization that it's not necessarily the route to go down. The show did stress parents better get up on the sexual lingo (I was pretty proud that even though my children aren't teens yet I knew most of what the lingo was) because that's where kids will leave them in the dust.

[bluetoria]

Thank you for this info. Some things confused me a little: I understood that a husband had to pay his wife's debts even if they were estranged because a wife, in law was seen only as an appendage to her husband. So would Philip not have been obliged to pay her debts or was the law in Austria different?
I was surprised at F-J encouaging a duel but, since only Philip's hand was hurt, were duels mainly meant to be merely a show of honour? (When was duelling made illegal?)
Do you know when Louise was put in & removed from the mental institution? After the divorce in early 1906 would her husband still have the right to have her kept there, presumably against her will?
At risk of reviving a former sensitive topic ( :-/) the idea of Louise, unwanted since birth fornot being a boy, running away from a cruel husband with a Count & ending up in poverty seems quiteromantic to me (although I DO wholeheartedly & totally believe in marital fidelty - honestly!!) & I am only thinking this IN A FAIRY STORY kind of way - an escape from a cruel husband with a dashing Count (maybe he wasn't?) who fights duel for your honour...v. 'Immortal Beloved' & 'Elvira Madigan.'

I understand that 'the past is a different country & they do things differently there' but, even allowing for Victorian taboos, I simply cannot understand mothers who would have allowed their daughters to be thrust into the beds of often older men with absolutely no idea of what was about to happen to them. QV's determination to keep her daughters in ignorance & worries that Alice 'knows too much' amazes me. P. Albert I think was more enlightened & I'm sure Alice would have educated her daughters better had she lived long enough. (It may have been the same with many men: I read of a 19th century philosopher whose knowledge of women's bodies was confined to the alabaster statues of goddesses he had seen in galleries. On his wedding night when he saw his naked wife he was so appalled to discover that she had body hair that he never went near her again. Poor woman to have caused him such revulsion!)
Nowadays, I agree with all grandduchessella has written, especiialy the religious, emotional & ethical aspects.  People are more comfortable talking about it with their children. Following my 'education' - an ancient religious pamphlet that my mother left on my bed when I was about to go to Grammar School!! [ (I think it said a lot about 'urges' & praying - I didn't understand a word of it!! I'm not sure that I'd understand it now it was so bizarre! You learn as you go along, I guess  ) - I have always talked openly to children. But I think that now there is a danger of over-education...children seem to have sex rammed down their throats (an unfortunate expression!) at every opportunity until 'anything goes' & in the determination to be politically correct, the moral aspect is quite often entirely overlooked & they are almost made to feel abnormal if they are not involved in any kind of sexual activity.
I think it's great that girls now can CHOOSE to be celibate without feeling there's something wrong with them.  How different from even say 15, 20 years ago when we were SUPPOSED to me so enlightened & in fact were only going from one extreme to the other.

[Eurohistory]

Louise's debts were extraordinary and threatened to put a serious strain on a wealthy husband as Philipp Coburg was.  To cover the scandal up as much as possible FJ decided to help Philipp settle the debts, since after all poor Stephanie had been dragge dinto the mess.

Louise, whatever pity one may have for her, had to know what a mess she was headed to.  Her own  mother had warned Stephanie to keep away from Louise as much as possible since she was seen as a pernicious influence on any young soul, terribly frivolous and a daring flirt.  The fact is that Louise did spend quite a bit of time raising eyebrows in Vienna with her behavior and lack of decorum.  To me it has always loked as if she was doing all this to bring attention to her troubled soul.

Arturo Beéche

[bluetoria]

To me it has always loked as if she was doing all this to bring attentuion to her troubled soul.

Arturo Beéche

Thank you for explaining about the debts.
This last line is very poignant...how very tragic.

[Paul]

Do you know when Louise was put in & removed from the mental institution? After the divorce in early 1906 would her husband still have the right to have her kept there, presumably against her will?

Louise's incarceration happened at her father's instigation. She was given two choices. She could return to her husband and behave. OR- King Leopold would have her committed to a luntic assylum. She chose the latter.

Her first prison was at Linderhof, Saxony. After word got out about her predicament, her family moved her to a more "genteel" lockup. This was sometime in the 1880s, but the exact date escapes me.

[bluetoria]

Thank you for that information, Paul. So it was a LONG time before her divorce. She must have REALLY been either afraid of or disliked her husband if she opted instead for an asylum which, I imagine, in those days must have been terrifying. What an alternative!
Thank you.

[Eurohistory]

I think that after the scandal it would have been impossible for Louise of Coburg to function at court in Vienna.  I very much doubt Franz Joseph would have allowed her at the Hofburg...so going back to life as it "was" must have been a false option in real terms.

Arturo Beéche

[bluetoria]

Is there any information about what her life in the 'asylum' was like?
I have a terrible image of 19th century 'asylums' partly created from the fearful last scene of 'The Music Lovers' where Tchaikovsky's demented wife is chained up in one!