Author Topic: the windors claim to the throne  (Read 17181 times)

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RomanovFan

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2004, 05:55:19 PM »
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it was recently stated on a tv programme that the windsors have no real claim to the british throne as going back in history their ancestor Edward IV was really illegitamate and thus making the British claim to the throne nil. quote]

Even if that were the case, wouldn't they be of royal blood anyway because of their ties to the Hessian line (Elizabeth II being Great Granddaughter-in-law to Victoria of Hesse (Alix's oldest sister) ?...at least by marriage?

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2004, 11:17:08 PM »
The question never was if the royal family had royal ancestry or not. The question was whether the Windsors had the right to the throne.

The thing is, Parliment decided several hundred years ago who would have the right to the British throne: the legitimate non Catholic descendants of the Electress of Hanover were so designated. There are currently thousand of these folks, and some are royal and some are very ordinary people. But, all of them have succession rights to the throne. There are even entire websites devoted to this topic.

In case you're wondering who the Electress of Hanover was, she was a daughter of King James I, who ruled in the 17th century - many hundreds of years ago.

Many, many people, including me, have royal ancestry, so it's not a big deal and doesn't mean you have succession rights. I read somewhere than most Englishmen are descended from William the Conqueror - or the man who held his horse and his coronation.

So, that TV show was basically - name your own word for human excrement.

Richard_Maybery

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2004, 10:10:30 AM »
The BBC as an institution is hardly republican, although I daresay some of its staff will be.   The programme claiming Edward IV's illegitimacy was, in any case, broadcast on Channel 4 which is an independent commercial channel - and a very fine channel at that!  All talk of the Windsors having no claim to the throne is academic anyway.  The Queen reigns by virtue of the Act of Settlement and the rule of primogeniture.

Offline jehan

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2004, 12:42:12 PM »
It hardly matters about the legitimacy of Edward IV, (And his daughter Elizabeth of York, who married Henry VII (Tudor)).  Henry Tudor, of dubious lineage himself, claimed the throne by right of conquest, not really by blood.  After all, the Lancastrian/York dispute began because the Lancastrians claimed that descent could not go through a woman, yet Henry's claim to the throne was through his mother.  So his real claim was that he won the battle of Bosworth, defeating Richard lll.  That he later married Elizabeth was a bonus, and a peacemaking gesture- but the legitimacy of her father would have had no bearing on his right to the throne- he was king regnant- she merely his consort.  Had he remarried after her death, and there is evidence that he considered it- his children by his second wife would have had equal claim to the throne as their elder siblings', regardless of their mother.

Likewise, whoever is the lineal claimant of the Stuarts, (someone on Lichtenstein, I believe?), it hardly matters, since parliament has called on and chosen the descendants of Sophia, grand-daughter of James l.  They have been accepted, crowned, and thus have been the true sovereigns for 300 years now. A few attempts to overthrow the Hanoverians failed- the pretenders did not have enough support among the British people. A "claim" doesn't matter, reality does.  Of course, tracking alternate lines of succession may be of interest to genealogists, and can be fascinating- but are  those marriages and parentages studied as closely as the ruling lines?  I'm sure that there are a few dubious marriages/offspring in those lines too- they just aren't studied as closely.

Anyone claiming to be the "true Monarch" has to remember that since 1066, the line of England/Britain has been descended from a conqueror too- surely one has to go back farther than that and find the true monarch through the Saxon line!  If one can't accept Henry Vll's claim, one can hardly accept William l's! ;)  
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in. 
(leonard Cohen)

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2004, 12:55:46 PM »
But, as Mr. Mayberry and I have both pointed out, Parliment has taken the authority to determine rights to the throne. Not birth alone, and not conquest have determined the succession since the Act of Settlement. The non-Catholic descendants of Sophia, Electress of Hanover in the established order of succession are it. Period, end of story, at least until they change their minds!

Offline jehan

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2004, 02:02:12 PM »
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But, as Mr. Mayberry and I have both pointed out, Parliment has taken the authority to determine rights to the throne. Not birth alone, and not conquest have determined the succession since the Act of Settlement. The non-Catholic descendants of Sophia, Electress of Hanover in the established order of succession are it. Period, end of story, at least until they change their minds!


Umm... I was agreeing with you- just in a rather longwinded way,  and using other historical examples.  The "true" monarch of Britain is the one who is accepted and crowned, whether by birth, conquest or parliamentary settlement.  In this case it is Elizabeth ll, (and a fine job she is doing too!).  As I stated- genealogical "claim" doesn't matter- reality does!
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in. 
(leonard Cohen)

JonC

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2004, 08:35:14 AM »
Speaking of 'genealogical claim' I would like to bring this back to the Romanovs for second. Was Nicholas 2nd also in line to the Brittish throne?

If his family had survived would their descendants also be in line to the said throne? Just a thought. JonC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by JonC »

nerdycool

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2004, 08:48:47 AM »
No, I don't think so. The way the two families were related was through Queen Alexandra and Dowager Empress Marie...princesses of Denmark. If the Imperial Family had survived, there would be no chance at all for them to be in the line of succession to the British throne. The closest they would have gotten would be a consort.

*Though I said Denmark was the common denomenator, that doesn't mean they were in the line of succession to the Danish throne either. I'm not sure (and don't have the time right now to find out), but I think the Danish constitution stated at the time, that the throne was passed through the male line, like it was is so many other countries.

Raysputin

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2004, 06:18:45 PM »
please, somebody remind me what the 'Windsor's surname was before they changed it ! ::)
quite FRANKly, I am surprized folks don't understand the error
of nomenclature, one doesn't have to be a celtic revisionist
to wonder when exactly  British and English became so interchangable.

olga

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2004, 08:47:26 AM »
Hanover. But it wasn't a surname, just the House of Hanover. George V changed it to the House of Windsor and the personal surname of Windsor.

Robert_Hall

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2004, 08:57:19 AM »
I think you will find that "Hanover" ceased when Victoria married Albert. The House nmae changed to Saxe-Coburg-Gotha then.
Cheers,
Robert

olga

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2004, 01:43:40 AM »
True, Bobby.

MarquisAnthony

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2004, 02:16:52 PM »
Quote
The question never was if the royal family had royal ancestry or not. The question was whether the Windsors had the right to the throne.

The thing is, Parliment decided several hundred years ago who would have the right to the British throne: the legitimate non Catholic descendants of the Electress of Hanover were so designated. There are currently thousand of these folks, and some are royal and some are very ordinary people. But, all of them have succession rights to the throne. There are even entire websites devoted to this topic.

In case you're wondering who the Electress of Hanover was, she was a daughter of King James I, who ruled in the 17th century - many hundreds of years ago.

Many, many people, including me, have royal ancestry, so it's not a big deal and doesn't mean you have succession rights. I read somewhere than most Englishmen are descended from William the Conqueror - or the man who held his horse and his coronation.

So, that TV show was basically - name your own word for human excrement.



The Electress was a granddaughter of King James, not a dau. Her mother was Elizabeth, the Winter Queen , princess of Great Britain and daughter of King James.

MarquisAnthony

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2004, 02:24:23 PM »
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Certainly Charles of Savoy was from the same line of William the Conqueror.

James I had several children, including:
-Charles I
-Elizabeth, Queen consort of Bohemia, grandmother of George I.

Charles I had several children, including:
-Charles II
-James II
-Henrietta Anne (1644-1670), married to Philip of Bourbon, Duke of Orleans

Henrietta was the mother of Anne Marie (1669-1728), who married Victor Amadeus II, King of Sardinia and Duke of Savoy and was the mother of Charles III of Sardinia (1701-1773). His son by Princess Polyxene of Hesse-Rheinfelds-Rothenburg, Victor Amadeus III (1726-1796), was the father of two Kings of Sardinia and Jacobite pretenders:
-  Charles (1751-1819), married Clotilde of France, sister of Louis XVI, but had no issue.
- Victor (1759-1824), married Maria Theresa of Modena and had several children, including the Jacobite pretender Mary "II" (1792-1840), who married Francis, Duke of Modena, and had issue, from whom descends the present day "Jacobite" claimant, Francis of Bavaria.

As it can be seen, genealogically the current "Jacobite" line, and all the other (countless) descendants from Henrietta and Philip of Bourbon, are senior to the members of the Hannoverian/Windsor line, but they are barred from the succession.





Now this I find very interesting. I never realized that the Stuarts had even legitimally progressed pass William III, Mary, Anne, and the children of James II & Maria of Modena. Yes the fact remains that since England was to remain a Protestant state so the houses of Hanover, S-C-G, and Windsor are legitimate. I still find it ironic and interesting that the true royal senior line IS from Henrietta Anne Duchess of Orleans and Anne Marie Queen of Sardinia. And the flux of kingdoms covered in such short generations is amazing as well, England - France - Sardinia/German principality -  then 2 generations later - Modena straight to Bavaria

Offline carl fraley

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Re: the windors claim to the throne
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2006, 09:10:17 PM »
Someone earlier said that Edward IV's brother the Duke of Clarence's heir was living in Candada and was a british earl??  I thought the Last Yorkist Claimaint was killed when henry Viii executed both the Countess of Salisburry and Edmund de La Pole.???  Can anyone clarify who the guy this person is talking about is?