von der Osten-Sacken

[Marc]

Anything Interesting about this family?Origines?Society position?Titles?Pictures?

[Belochka]

Count Nicholai Vladimirovitch Osten-Sacken (1831-1912) was the Russian ambassador to Berlin.

[Marc]

Anything else about him(them)?I also read somewhere that they were given Princely Tiltles?When,to whom and why?Does anybody know?

[Belochka]

Hi Marc,

The book Suicide of a Monarchy by Eugene Schekling, who wrote his recollections in 1918, had served as First Secretary in Berlin at the time of Osten-Sacken's appointment in Berlin.

The author mentions Count Osten-Sacken many times in his book and has provided an image of the Ambassador between pp 64-5.

As far as I am aware, he did not receive princely status.

[Marc]

I know that Princely title was given in Russia,but to whom...?Don't know!Thanks for any kind of info!

[Belochka]

This is part of the Osten-Sacken genealogy:

OSTEN-SAKEN, Comte Family:
Marriage: in St.Petersbourg
Spouse:
TOLSTOI, Alexandra Ilyinitchna Comtesse Osten-Saken nee comtesse
Death : 30 Aug 1841 Optina Pustin
Parents:
Father: TOLSTOI, Ilya Andreievitch Comte
Mother: GORTCHAKOV, Pelageya Nicolaevna Comtesse Ilya TOLSTOI nee princesse

There was a princess from the wife's side of the family, the father of Countess Pelageya was Prince Nikolai Ivanovich Gortchakov.
_____________________________________________

And then there is this genealogy of the Diplomat:

Sophia Nicholaievna Balachov  
              Born 20 April 1885  
              Married 14 January 1909  
              Count Nicholas Vladimirovitch von der Osten-Sacken, son of  
              Count Vladimir Dimitrievitch von der Osten-Sacken and  
              Princess Alexandra Dimitrievna Ouroussova  
              Born 17 January 1880

Again it was the female side which held the Princely titles.
_____________________________________________

Count Nikolai Vladimirovitch succeeded Count Shouvalov in Berlin.

If you require further information about the Osten-Sacken family then there is another book which you may like to consult:

Les Familles Comtales De L'Ancien Empire De Russie Volume 2 by Jacques Ferrand.

This french language book provides a brief history and family tree of this family.

Hopefully this book will help you with your inquiries.

All the best,

Belochka    

[Marc]

Thanks very much,though don't understand French   About Princely title in Russia I read somewhere that the branch that held it it is now extinct,so I was wondering if the title of the Prince ould pass to another member of the family or is lost forever?They obtained the title of a Prince 8.11.1832 in Russia!

[Belochka]

Pity that you cannot read a little French! The book might still be worth looking at. It may not be so hard to work out the names.

Titles in Imperial Russia passed down through the father (patrilineal descent). If the male was ennobled, then the title, in this case, Prince/Princess, would pass onto to all his children. However there are a few scenarios where the title could become extinct:

1. There were no males to inherit the title from the father,

2. Any males from his marriage who had received the title, but they themselves were unable to pass on the title to the subsequent generation, because:

(a) They died before they could produce males,
(b) If they only had daughters, as mature women they could not pass on their title upon marriage, to their spouse and any offspring.

Therefore, despite the personal ennoblement of past generations, the title of Prince can become extinct in a subsequent generation. It would also help explain why one branch of the family remained as Counts and Countesses, while another were Princes and Princesses.

Personal nobility was provided as a reward for service to the State in the military. While civil servants were granted nobility through receipt of honorific orders, or at the Emperor's discretion by Imperial decree.

From the reign of Nikolai I the children of personal nobles upon the coming of age could register as personal nobles themselves.    

[Marc]

Thanks,Belochka for those info's.Very valueable!!!

[Belochka]

I glad I was able to help you Marc!

All the best,

Belochka  

[Marc]

Yes,you did,because I am always more interested in those families I can't find much about on the web!If anyone has any other information about this family,please post it!

[Marc]

Just found out that Count Fabian Gottlieb was made Prince von der Osten-Sacken in 1832...if someone finds something more about this family please post!

[David Pritchard]

Baron Fabian-Gotlieb von der Osten-Sacken b. 1752; d.1837 (known in Russian as Fabian Vilgelmovich) created Count of the Russian Empire in 1821, General-Feldmarshal in 1818 (replacing Prince Barclay-de-Tolay upon his death that year) and Prince of the Russian Empire in 1832. He held the Order of Saint Andrew the First Called and the Order of Saint George 2nd Class. No wife is indsicated so he must have have died unmarried and thus without legitimate heirs if any.

[Marc]

I also found another Prince von der Osten-Sacken who died in Prussia...His name was Carl,Fürst von der Osten, gen. Sacken,lived from 1721-1795...He was the son of Johann Ulrich (died 1731),who was ''hessen-kasselscher Oberst'' and Benigna von Fircks(died in 1734),He married twice,firstly to Countess Henriette Erdmuthe Eleonore von Brühl(died in 1762) and later to Christiane Charlotte von Dieskau,widow Countess von Hoym...He had one daughtet Henriette from his first marriage who died in infancy and second Christine Charlotte in the second marriage but she is not listed in every genealgy sistem.He was obviously Fürst in Prussia,so who was he?Any more on him?

[David Pritchard]

Karl was born the son of a colonel in the Hesse-Cassel army. Karl served as a diplomat for Saxony/Poland in Stockholm and Saint Petersburg. He was created a Count of the Holy Roman Empire by Francis II as well as serving as a Senior Chamberlain and a States Minister in the Privy Council. He was granted the Order of Saint Andrew the First Called and the Order of Prince Saint Al;eksandr Nevskogo by Catherine the Great. The Prussian king, Frederick the Great made Karl a Prince of the Kingdom of Prussia in 1786.

He must have been a very crafty diplomat as he collected honors from many different countries.