Author Topic: Rasputin's Funeral and Burial  (Read 29629 times)

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Offline dp5486

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2007, 08:07:36 PM »
Does anybody happen to know who Zhuk and Feodosia Stepanovna are? They both attended the burial and I can't seem to track them down in any of the Rasputin books I've read.

Offline Petrushka

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2007, 11:05:12 AM »
FA - Whilst I don't think BeautyQueen expressed herself terribly well, her point is interesting and shouldn't be dismissed quite so strongly.  It is impossible to dispute that as Empress, Alexandra clearly had the 'right' or ability to make such a decision.  Without understanding the logic behind it, it does seem (particularly today) a strange decision that Rasputin's own children were not permitted to attend their father's funeral.  It almost suggests a sense of ownership of Rasputin by the Empress? The children were clearly old enough to attend in a sincere fashion and of similar ages to the Imperial children.  I would argue that it IS quite an interesting (if poorly expressed) point.

Accepting that Rasputin did not see a huge amount of his children for prolonged periods, I would still be intrigued as to why they wouldn't be permitted to attend?  Even if they had a separate ceremony before the actual internment - it still seems an odd decision.  This is further compounded by the variety of other people in attendance.

While none of us appreciate someone talking about a member of the IF in critical tones, it does appear a rather 'cold' attitude.  Yes Alexandra could effectively make the decision, but the thought behind it intrigues me.

Does anyone know why this may have been done?

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2007, 04:09:35 PM »
Rasputin's family attended a Requim Mass with the body on December 20, with the service for the dead performed by Bishop Isidore.  Nicholas and Alexandra had decided to have the burial itself be a very private affair at the site near the Feodorvsky Sobor.  Virtually nobody was there, except for the immediate IF, Vyroubova and only a couple of unnamed "intimate friends".

Russian's from what I understand, are less hung up about attending the burial itself than attending the Funeral Service itself.  Nobody would dare miss the service, but equally wouldn't really be offended if not asked to attend the burial.  This is exactly what happened when Tante Lilly passed.  The Russian Orthodox funeral service was packed, standing room only, but only the immediate family went to the burial.  I don't think Alexandra felt she was depriving his children of anything.

Offline Petrushka

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2007, 02:26:24 AM »
Thanks for that - as with so many things it's difficult to understand the 'way things were done' because of the cultural differences and of course the difference of almost a century. 

I know this is a question that's been asked before - but has anyone ever been able to accurately place the burial site itself?  Was there a marker originally?  Once the body was exhumed, I've always wondered what happened to the icon the IF had signed?  That would be a find!

Best wishes

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2007, 09:05:42 AM »
The actual burial site has been discussed, and has always been known but never revealed because it would cause too much disruption to the area and the local priests and bishop do not want the site to become used for "weird" things, which would inevitably happen.  There was no marker at all. Initially, the site was vandalized just days after the burial.  Soon afterwards the foundations of the chapel Anya Vyroubova was building were laid over the grave, but the construction never went further.  Kerensky had the icon after he had Rasputin's body exhumed and brought to Petrogard, it disappeared thereafter.

Offline clockworkgirl21

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #65 on: December 21, 2007, 10:09:16 PM »
Quote
FA - Whilst I don't think BeautyQueen expressed herself terribly well, her point is interesting and shouldn't be dismissed quite so strongly.  It is impossible to dispute that as Empress, Alexandra clearly had the 'right' or ability to make such a decision.  Without understanding the logic behind it, it does seem (particularly today) a strange decision that Rasputin's own children were not permitted to attend their father's funeral.  It almost suggests a sense of ownership of Rasputin by the Empress? The children were clearly old enough to attend in a sincere fashion and of similar ages to the Imperial children.  I would argue that it IS quite an interesting (if poorly expressed) point.

I agree that Alexandra may have legally had the right to decide who attended the funeral, but that doesn't mean she should have had the right. It is mean that she wouldn't allow Rasputin's own daughters to be there, even though she was allowed to tell them that. An empress could have the right to do anything she wanted, but that doesn't make it *actually* right.

I didn't know Rasputin's remains were missing.  :-\

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #66 on: December 21, 2007, 10:25:08 PM »
The Empress of Russia HAD the right.  Perhaps you agree that she should have died because she was "wrong" to have that right.  It is really pointless to engage in this "she was mean" or "she shouldn't have". She had the right, she did. and frankly Rasputin's family was GRATEFUL that the Empress of Russia cared about him and gave him more of a funeral than he could ever have hoped for without her. PLEASE leave your 21st century sensibilities at the door....

Rasputin's body was burned in the forest and the ashes "scattered to the four winds" according to those who burned it.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2007, 09:30:25 AM »
Was there any specific reason why Alexandra kept Rasputin's daughters from attending his burial?

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2007, 09:54:14 AM »
Helen there is no written record of why the decision was made as it was.  All we know is that the family including his children attended the Funeral Services for the Dead in the orthodox tradition, with the body present the day before the burial. This is as good as standing at the gravesite in the Orthodox tradition, to the best of my  knowledge.  Alexandra decided that only the IF, Vyroubova and "a very few intimate friends" would stand at the grave site for the burial. Her exact reasons for this are lost to us.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2007, 10:49:07 AM »
Helen there is no written record of why the decision was made as it was.  All we know is that the family including his children attended the Funeral Services for the Dead in the orthodox tradition, with the body present the day before the burial. This is as good as standing at the gravesite in the Orthodox tradition, to the best of my  knowledge.  Alexandra decided that only the IF, Vyroubova and "a very few intimate friends" would stand at the grave site for the burial. Her exact reasons for this are lost to us.

Thanks. I do understand that - right or wrong - the Empress of Russia had the power to make this type of decision, but it just sounds somewhat odd that Rasputin's own children wouldn't be included in the circle of the "few intimate friends", unless there was a specific reason for this.

Offline nena

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2008, 02:02:34 PM »
During the Revolution, and Imperial Family's arrest at Tsarskoe Selo in 1917, his body was transferred to St. Petersburg(or Moscow, I am not sure), then was burned by Bolsheviks.

I have read on his funeral was presented Alix and OTMA -- in his deathbed was found icon with signatures of Alexandra, and four Grand Duchesses. I doubt Alexei was at funeral, for NII it is unlikely. Anna Vyrubova was, too. She gave order to build that Church near AP just before he was murdered and in which he was buried.

Documents about his body exhumation disappeared in the 1930s.

Olga Nicholaievna, a day after murder, mentioned in her diary that they(IF) were doubt that Dimitri Pavlovich also took part in Yussupov's night. Of course, Felix and Dmitrii already had planned -- what they had to say, etc. etc. And it is interesting several woman were at Yussupov's palace on December 16th 1916, that is what Rasputin heard when he entered at Palace. One of woman screamed when she saw Rasputin. That is that voice one policeman heard near the Palace.

How about Secret Police -- they weren't follow him? Of course, but until 10.p.m.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 10:20:42 PM by Alixz »
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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2008, 02:39:03 PM »
I have read on his funreal was presented Alix and OTMA -- in his deathbed was found icon with signatures of Alexandra, and four Grand Duchesses. I doubt Alexei was at funreal, for NII it is unlikely. Anna Virburova was, too. She gave order to build that Church near AP just before he was murdered and in which he was buried.

From Olga Nikolaevna's diary, 21 December 1916:
"At 9 we 4, Papa and Mama rode to the site of Anya’s building, where a service was conducted and Father Grigori was buried -- on the left side of the future church. Save us, Holy Lord..."

From Maria's diary, 21 December 1916:
"The 4 of us were with Papa, Mama and others at Gregory’s funerals. Buried at Ania’s construction."

(The Olga excerpt was translated by Helen A., and Maria's by matushka.)
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Offline nena

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2008, 06:41:18 PM »
Thank you Sarah. Now we know on his funeral were presented Nicholas, Alexandra and Four Grand Duchesses, Vasilyev(priest of IF), hospital' s priest, architect Yakovlyev,Malycev, Alikina Laptinska, Anna Virburova, Lili Dehn, T. Voino(Virburova's servant), Loman, Ischchenko (he sang in funeral).


NII's diary ..
21 December 1916
At 9 we went to field where we were presented at sad scene. Never forgotten Georgiy, which was killed on night 16/7 December in Yussupov's house, was buried. Priest A. Vasilyev officiated service, after we went home.

 
From Razdinsky's Rasputin: Life and Death

After this, Nicholas II had not more good words for Dmitri and Felix (and for Purishkevich, too) . I think he hate murders, just because of this. Their relationships were broken.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 09:00:22 AM by Alixz »
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Offline Joanna

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2008, 04:18:13 PM »
The architect Yakolev mentioned by nena is the same man who wrote the book on the interiors of the Alexander Palace c1927.

I believe the decision to not include the daughters of Rasputin at the burial was to maintain secrecy of the location. St. Petersburg was volatile during the days after the murder and there was a need to protect the coffin. The chapel of Anna Vyrubova had recently been consecrated and the choice of the site was most probably an interim solution but within two months revolution began.

Joanna

Offline GoldenPen

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Re: Rasputin's Funeral
« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2009, 07:54:12 AM »
Rasputin's family probably thought it was an honor to have the Empress of all of Russia to plan the funeral. Much different thinking, in the 20th century, especially for Russia with a royal family.

Truly, GoldenPen
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 10:22:11 PM by Alixz »
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