discussion about orthodox religion #1

[helenazar]

This discussion started on another thread: http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=links;action=display;num=1089288424;start=25#25  until we realized that we better start a new thread especially for this! So please post your thoughts about orthodox faith/traditions, and maybe religion in general here.  

[bluetoria]

Brilliant! Thanks

My view is that we needn't BE so divided. Theologians play with words & miss the importance of all that Christianity is meant to be. I do not believe that Jesus founded the Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant Churches - but that He founded (not as a Church) but as a way of life) Christianity. We...going back to Peter & Paul...have caused these divisions. Perhaps if we accepted different cultures have different means of practising their faith, we could realize that basically we are all one. And that 'oneness' seems to me the most important part of it...Jesus' prayer the night before He died, "That they may be one as we are one."
Well, that's what I think anyway (but I'm probably wrong.)

[helenazar]

Brilliant! Thanks

I do not believe that Jesus founded the Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant Churches - but that He founded... a way of life... We...going back to Peter & Paul...have caused these divisions.  

 

Yes, exactly! It is all "man-made"! This is why I kind of feel that we shouldn't have organized religion, because although it's very nice in theory, once you have it in place, these divisions are inevitable - it's human nature! This has been proven over and over, unfortunately. It would be so much nicer for everyone if people just worshipped however they wanted to worship (or not at all) and minded their own business. Sorry for putting it that way.  

[bluetoria]

But at the same time we need to 'belong' - and we (or at least I) need guidance or else we may end up believing all kinds of bizarre things & become arrogant in thinking we are right. We can surely learn from the experiences of the past, too - and in this I think organized religion is necessary...it's just the way it's organized at the moment!
I mean, for example, when I was younger I always thought that what I did was okay & when the Church said it was wrong I assumed the (very arrogantly) that the Church was out-of-date or wrong!
Later, I saw that it was right all the time & I was wrong...but young & foolish!
It's a bit complicated, this, isn't it? I wish it were earlier in the day (it's after midnight here!)

[Dashkova]

But at the same time we need to 'belong' - and we (or at least I) need guidance or else we may end up believing all kinds of bizarre things & become arrogant in thinking we are right. We can surely learn from the experiences of the past, too - and in this I think organized religion is necessary...it's just the way it's organized at the moment!
I mean, for example, when I was younger I always thought that what I did was okay & when the Church said it was wrong I assumed the (very arrogantly) that the Church was out-of-date or wrong!
Later, I saw that it was right all the time & I was wrong...but young & foolish!
 

How sad!  :-/

[bluetoria]

Why sad? You live & learn!

[helenazar]

But at the same time we need to 'belong' - and ... need guidance or else we may end up believing all kinds of bizarre things & become arrogant in thinking we are right.  

 Why would this be the case? We are not children, after all!

[bluetoria]

Perhaps I phrased it badly. (It's so late!!) Because, perhaps, God is so 'unknowable' - it is important (I think) to be able to have some kind of 'standard' (I can't think of a better expression) against which to test our beliefs. The Church seems to be that. That where we are not sure we can consider the thousands of years of experience and see what the Church states. Also, I believe that through the Church (in some way which I do not understand) God can speak to us whereas (think back to denial in other threads our own minds might deceive us.

[Georgiy]

In spiritual matters we all are children! Probably actually infants. I would be very wary of people claiming to be 'spiritual' - there is a lot of deception (both self-deception and from the evil one out there) and a lot of prelest (spiritual deception - a kind of I am holier than thou mindset - 'I have seen a vision of Angels so I must be on the right track and am therefore quite spiritual' - all the while forgetting that the Devil can appear as a shining angel if he so wishes.)

[helenazar]

 ....where we are not sure we can consider the thousands of years of experience and see what the Church states.

 

But different churches have different opinions about things, that's my whole point. So the church may confuse us even more, unless you have absolute faith in whichever church we are talking about... And even then, this advice is coming from a person, not from God, and is subject to their interpretation.

 I believe that through the Church (in some way which I do not understand) God can speak to us whereas (think back to denial in other threads our own minds might deceive us.

Since you put it that way, than psychotherapy may be more effective

I guess different people have different needs and luckily we have the option of where to turn to for our own (at least in some countries we do). People should just choose what's right for them to get them through the day or through life, but we shouldn't assume that one specific thing will work for everyone...

[helenazar]

 In spiritual matters we all are children! Probably actually infants. I would be very wary of people claiming to be 'spiritual' - there is a lot of deception (both self-deception and from the evil one out there) and a lot of prelest (spiritual deception - a kind of I am holier than thou mindset - 'I have seen a vision of Angels so I must be on the right track and am therefore quite spiritual' - all the while forgetting that the Devil can appear as a shining angel if he so wishes.)

What if you are not spiritual at all and are ok with that? i don't think we necessarily need spiritualism to be decent human beings or to be happy for that matter. Everyone needs different things in life, as I said before. Some people crave spiritualism, others crave other things, it just depends on the type of person.  

[Georgiy]

The Church Fathers are remarkably in accord with each other in their opinions - over 100s of years, and from the time when Orthodoxy and the Roman Church were the same. Differences creep into the west from around the end of the first millenium, and after the Reformation, there are all kinds of things floating around out there. But the Church Fathers are consistant, and startsy even in these latter days continue to express the same mind as their forbears - let the mind that is in Christ Jesus be in you.

[Georgiy]

I think a spiritual aspect is inbuilt into humans. It depends how it's channeled. For some people their 'god' is the TV, the Internet, the Horse races....
Religion isn't something we do on Sundays, it permeates our entire being - how we live, how we feel, how we interpret our surroundings.
If the inbuilt spirituality doesn't get used in religion, it comes out in other ways. I think there is a very real need in humans for worship. But are we worshipping God, or an idol? We need to ask ourselves this.

[helenazar]

Religion isn't something we do on Sundays, it permeates our entire being - how we live, how we feel, how we interpret our surroundings.
 If the inbuilt spirituality doesn't get used in religion, it comes out in other ways. I think there is a very real need in humans for worship. But are we worshipping God, or an idol? We need to ask ourselves this.

Yes, you are right, there is something innate about it, otherwise how could we explain the fact that for thousands of years humans always worshipped something. But I think what we are talking about here is "passion" for something, not "spirituality" per say. Yes, for some people it is religion, for others it may be their work, for some it may be another person even,  yet others may have some specific passion for things like art or music or whatever. I don't think we are necessarily channeling our spirituality into something else instead of religion though, I think we are each sort of wired up to go a certain way, and we do.  Some are more spiritual than others because this is the way they are wired up, others are not at all, but maybe have inclination for something else. Also, as I am sure you know, not everyone "feels" religion the way are supposed to, many just go through the motions for various reasons, but feel nothing or almost nothing. It may just not be their 'cup of tea", but they may be too scared or guilty to admit it even to themselves... That doesn't seem like a good thing.  

[Georgiy]

That's right. Going through the motions is to my mind a sin, though I am sure many of us experience it from time-to-time.  Also I think, if religion becomes a passion, then it is also a sin because it is idolising the religion and not God. In Orthodoxy we are to struggle against our passions - and its amazing once you've started work on pulling up the big and obvious ones, the deep-rooted ones, how many little ones are hidden away as well - passions and sins which you never suspected but which have been there, quietly eating away at your soul.
(A good definition of sin btw is 'to miss the target')

I have heard the story about a convert to Orthodoxy who is super-zealous and does everything by the book. Someone was asking about this person and whether he is Orthodox or not. The reply from an old 'cradle' Orthodox lady was "Well, he is certainly Orthodox, but is he a Christian?" Sometimes I feel that story very much applies to me.