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discussion about orthodox religion #1

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helenazar:

--- Quote ---  In spiritual matters we all are children! Probably actually infants. I would be very wary of people claiming to be 'spiritual' - there is a lot of deception (both self-deception and from the evil one out there) and a lot of prelest (spiritual deception - a kind of I am holier than thou mindset - 'I have seen a vision of Angels so I must be on the right track and am therefore quite spiritual' - all the while forgetting that the Devil can appear as a shining angel if he so wishes.)
--- End quote ---


What if you are not spiritual at all and are ok with that? i don't think we necessarily need spiritualism to be decent human beings or to be happy for that matter. Everyone needs different things in life, as I said before. Some people crave spiritualism, others crave other things, it just depends on the type of person.  

Georgiy:
The Church Fathers are remarkably in accord with each other in their opinions - over 100s of years, and from the time when Orthodoxy and the Roman Church were the same. Differences creep into the west from around the end of the first millenium, and after the Reformation, there are all kinds of things floating around out there. But the Church Fathers are consistant, and startsy even in these latter days continue to express the same mind as their forbears - let the mind that is in Christ Jesus be in you.

Georgiy:
I think a spiritual aspect is inbuilt into humans. It depends how it's channeled. For some people their 'god' is the TV, the Internet, the Horse races....
Religion isn't something we do on Sundays, it permeates our entire being - how we live, how we feel, how we interpret our surroundings.
If the inbuilt spirituality doesn't get used in religion, it comes out in other ways. I think there is a very real need in humans for worship. But are we worshipping God, or an idol? We need to ask ourselves this.

helenazar:

--- Quote --- Religion isn't something we do on Sundays, it permeates our entire being - how we live, how we feel, how we interpret our surroundings.
 If the inbuilt spirituality doesn't get used in religion, it comes out in other ways. I think there is a very real need in humans for worship. But are we worshipping God, or an idol? We need to ask ourselves this.
--- End quote ---


Yes, you are right, there is something innate about it, otherwise how could we explain the fact that for thousands of years humans always worshipped something. But I think what we are talking about here is "passion" for something, not "spirituality" per say. Yes, for some people it is religion, for others it may be their work, for some it may be another person even,  yet others may have some specific passion for things like art or music or whatever. I don't think we are necessarily channeling our spirituality into something else instead of religion though, I think we are each sort of wired up to go a certain way, and we do.  Some are more spiritual than others because this is the way they are wired up, others are not at all, but maybe have inclination for something else. Also, as I am sure you know, not everyone "feels" religion the way are supposed to, many just go through the motions for various reasons, but feel nothing or almost nothing. It may just not be their 'cup of tea", but they may be too scared or guilty to admit it even to themselves... That doesn't seem like a good thing.  :(

Georgiy:
That's right. Going through the motions is to my mind a sin, though I am sure many of us experience it from time-to-time.  Also I think, if religion becomes a passion, then it is also a sin because it is idolising the religion and not God. In Orthodoxy we are to struggle against our passions - and its amazing once you've started work on pulling up the big and obvious ones, the deep-rooted ones, how many little ones are hidden away as well - passions and sins which you never suspected but which have been there, quietly eating away at your soul.
(A good definition of sin btw is 'to miss the target')

I have heard the story about a convert to Orthodoxy who is super-zealous and does everything by the book. Someone was asking about this person and whether he is Orthodox or not. The reply from an old 'cradle' Orthodox lady was "Well, he is certainly Orthodox, but is he a Christian?" Sometimes I feel that story very much applies to me. :-[

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