discussion about orthodox religion #1

[Georgiy]

You got it! That book is definately quite dodgey!

Actually, it is just a hypothetical book, and the same story can be applied to all kinds of other places.  I think what is significant in it is that what may seem like the most trivial comment (to the person who made it) could be the most disasterous thing for another person's soul.

[Dashkova]

Dashkova
Are you Orthodox? I was simply curious - no insult intended, I simply seem to have no ability to "just believe."
rskkiya

Nah, raised Presbyterian, attended Catholic school, converted to Anglicanism as an adult, married a Russian Orthodox (whose faith is simple, charming, embedded with paganism, and just naive in a way that I would never attempt to discuss with him)  I have thought of Orthodoxy, but realize that while I love the bells and whistles that come with the practice of the faith, I do not have the belief itself.  In fact, I frankly cannot really respect the intelligence of religious types.  I *do* respect their right to believe what they wish, but I really do wonder about their depth of intellect.  I am NOT pointing fingers at anyone, like I said, I come from a religious family and married into another.  I respect their beliefs but do not admire nor understand them.

I guess I am agnostic.  I want to believe there is something after this world -- as a parent one must harbor some sort of hope -- but I do not think it has anything to do with man made religions (that would be all of them) and must agree with Voltaire on the matter.

[Pravoslavnaya]

To me - an Orthodox convert from Protestantism - the definition of a passion differs slightly in Western culture and in secular usage than the definition in Orthodoxy.  The word describes not only an occasion or an act of sin but the inclinations that lead to the acts.   Passions make it difficult to live life as the Lover of Mankind intended people to, and disturb concord between people -  not to mention obscuring 'the Kingdom of God within us'.  God means well.  And though at times we often know very well what we are doing when we indulge our whims and insist on our wills, we in fact know not what we do.  Passions often have quite an painful impact on other people when they are expressed.  Greed, for example, deprives the needy of what they need.  Lust can break up families.  And so on...

[helenazar]

I think the 'passions' we have been talking about which lead people to produce great music etc, may be better called talents. The other passions, the ones which corrupt, destroy and bring us and others down are not from God.

But when you have a talent for something, you also must have a passion for it in order to utilize this talent. Maybe we have different definitions of the term "passion"...   I don't mean base passions like for schapps, cigarettes or sex, or anything like that. I mean "passion" as in "drive" or "enthusiasm" for something...

[Georgiy]

Thank you Pravoslavnaya! That sums it up well. Sometimes it's hard to explain what certain terms mean within Orthodoxy (temptation is another tricky one) to non-Orthodox, especially when secular versions of the same word have different connotations, such as 'Passion'. I think that talent or ability covers it. The type of passion we have been talking about Helen isn't a passion in the sense of a sinful inclination or anything like that but a gift from God. (So long as it is used in the way God intends it!)

[rskkiya]

A lawyer and a best-selling author were both in hell, ingreat cauldrons with raging fire underneath them. The Devil came along regularly and added extra fuel to the author's fire. One day the lawyer asked about this "Why do you keep on adding extra fuel to the author's fire?"
"Well," said the Devil, "Each time someone reads his book, I add an extra log to the fire." (The point being that by reading the author's work someone's soul was damaged and so the devil kept adding fuel each time the book was read and someone damaged by it.)

Georgiy- This is one of the reasons that I feel that I cannot accept Xianity --this remark made no doubt with the best and most sublime sincerity - is horrifying to me!
The "Devil" and "G*D" seem to be the same being to me, both appear to be the same irrational and rather pathological figure!
  PLEASE don't take that as an insult! Honestly, I am not trying to offend -- I just don't get it!

rskkiya

[helenazar]

 I think what is significant in it is that what may seem like the most trivial comment (to the person who made it) could be the most disasterous thing for another person's soul.

But isn't every adult responsible for his or her own soul? I would hate to be responsible for someone's soul based on something  that may have came out of my mouth! I'd be in a lot of trouble then!  

[Georgiy]

We need to be careful on how our actions affect others.
If we have been responsible for leading someone into temptation then it's no small thing.

Rsskiya, the point was that we need to take responsibility for our words and deeds and think about how they may affect others. (I hope I didn't conjure up ideas of some behorned red faced pantomime like Devil with a pitchfork and pointy tail for you! The Devil is very real, but if he went around looking like and acting like the Devil, we'd see him coming and wouldn't touch him with a bargepole!)

[Dashkova]

Georgiy- This is one of the reasons that I feel that I cannot accept Xianity --this remark made no doubt with the best and most sublime sincerity - is horrifying to me!
The "Devil" and "G*D" seem to be the same being to me, both appear to be the same irrational and rather pathological figure!
   PLEASE don't take that as an insult! Honestly, I am not trying to offend -- I just don't get it!

rskkiya

Yes, that joke was positively "Dante-esque".  Now I love Dante but let's face it, humanity has moved beyond most medieval mentalities.  If there is a god, he/she cannot possibly have such attitudes and be anywhere near a rational being.

[Dashkova]

We need to be careful on how our actions affect others.
If we have been responsible for leading someone into temptation then it's no small thing.

I think that is absolutely true, but I'm sure you realize that moral responsibility does not require the presence of religious faith.

I love this discussion but I've got to finish reading "Rites of Spring" before midnight, and on that "pagan" note, I am bowing out.  Spokone noche, y'all.

[helenazar]

 If there is a god, he/she cannot possibly have such attitudes and be anywhere near a rational being.

I guess this is the trouble I have with religion too, the mentality one must adopt if one is to accept it... I just can't do it and doubt I ever will be able to. So I will probably just live out the rest of my life just the way I am. Which is ok by me  .

[Georgiy]

I'm sure you realize that moral responsibility does not require the presence of religious faith.

They aren't mutually exclusive, no. But actually, an atheist has much more faith than me - absolute faith that there is nothing.

[helenazar]

I think that is absolutely true, but I'm sure you realize that moral responsibility does not require the presence of religious faith.

That is exactly right! Moral responsibilty should come from emotional maturity of a person, not from fear of being punished if you don't do the "right" thing. I am not a religious person, yet I live my life in a very ethical way. Not because I think someone, i.e. God, is watching me, but because I have certain ethical rules for myself. I fully understand the difference between right and wrong and I don't feel that I need anyone to guide me as far as that goes, not since I was a small child.... but maybe some other people need this guidance, I don't know. I have often heard people say, thank God I have religion to keep me in check, otherwise I'd be out of control. I can never understand exactly what they mean by that  . I mean I do understand, but I can't relate. So maybe it just has something to do with one's personality, I don't know...  

[helenazar]

...an atheist has much more faith than me - absolute faith that there is nothing.

I think the best way to go is to be an "agnostic". You are just not sure one way or another, but neither do you care all that much. Nice and moderate  .

[Georgiy]

I have often heard people say, thank God I have religion to keep me in check, otherwise I'd be out of control. I can never understand exactly what they mean by that  . I mean I do understand, but I can't relate. So maybe it just has something to do with one's personality, I don't know...

I don't get that mind-set either! We don't need religion to keep us in check. I think that kind of thinking comes from a Western tradition of a scary revengeful God. Quite different from the Orthodox way of perceiving God (in as much as we can conceive that which is inconceivable!) God is Absolute Love. Like I have mentioned before, Heaven and Hell are in the same place - how we respond to that absolute love determines what it will feel like to us.