Author Topic: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich  (Read 267714 times)

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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #135 on: April 03, 2005, 12:05:26 PM »
In the original Sokolov report. my quote was my translation from the French original.

Lass

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #136 on: April 05, 2005, 11:46:07 AM »
This could already have been mentioned, but I'm new here, so I wouldn't know!

What are your opinions of Michael Gray's claim to be the son of the tsarevich? From the little I have gathered on here so far, the generally held view is that the whole family died...

Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #137 on: April 05, 2005, 02:00:30 PM »
I'm afraid that Michael Gray's book "Blood Relative" is, in those few areas where I consider myself informed, arrant nonsense.  I particularly laughed at his analysis (pp120-121) of Meinertzhagen's claims about the aircraft rescue (which he completely misinterprets) and his statement that various RAF bases in S Russia could have been used as staging posts for a rescue.  Considering they weren't established until 1919 this is impossible & if he didn't check these facts what else didn't he check?  I particularly liked the way he suggested that Special Branch (the UK's "political police") had been through his house in his absence.  Given that he's from Northern Ireland and admitted to having been in correspondence with Prince Michael of Kent and to have tried to arrange meetings I sincerely hope they had.

There are undoubtedly mysteries attached to this man but not the ones he thinks.

Phil Tomaselli

Lass

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #138 on: April 05, 2005, 02:48:49 PM »
Lol, you do make it sound like nonsense too! ;D I know what you mean, but what made me think he shouldn't be too quickly brushed aside was his naming of sources. If those are real people, then their words would be significant.

Also, I couldn't help thinking that the authorities would never be so concerned about him unless he was worth being concerned about, if you see what I mean! I don't possess the book, so you'll have to fill me in if I'm wrong.

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #139 on: April 05, 2005, 07:10:21 PM »
Quote

I'm not sure if this was already discused, but I don't really have time now to read the whole thread! So where can I find the full discription of Sukhorukov's witness of the dead bodies?

~Anastacia~


Penny  posted part of Sukhorukov's state of 3 April 1928 over on the thread about Yourievsky and testimonies under Final Chapter.

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1106530719;start=25#25

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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lexi4

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #140 on: April 06, 2005, 08:48:09 PM »
As for Mr. Yurovsky having no reason to lie-what if the two kids escaped the compound prior to the murders happening? You think that entire group of people would not have had a major reason to lie. Yes there is no evidence to suggest that, but men have always had reasons to lie-whether lies are obvious to the general public or not. So what would you do if that happened and you were in their position? Start an intensive search for them- If you couldn't find them you would probably set up an elaborate misinformation campaign that they were killed with the hopes of flushing them out. Maybe you are right though...who am I to say?

I agree with you Insight. I think Yurovsky and others had ample reason to lie if all of the bodies weren't accounted for...like execution. Like you, I have not reason to believe that any of the IF survived. I do now that for me to believe something, I need to have data, hard evidence. I also agree that it was really in poor taste for the forum administrator to use 911 as part of his argument.

helenazar

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #141 on: April 06, 2005, 09:20:57 PM »
Quote
As for Mr. Yurovsky having no reason to lie-what if the two kids escaped the compound prior to the murders happening? You think that entire group of people would not have had a major reason to lie. Yes there is no evidence to suggest that, but men have always had reasons to lie-whether lies are obvious to the general public or not. So what would you do if that happened and you were in their position? Start an intensive search for them- If you couldn't find them you would probably set up an elaborate misinformation campaign that they were killed with the hopes of flushing them out. Maybe you are right though...who am I to say?

I agree with you Insight. I think Yurovsky and others had ample reason to lie if all of the bodies weren't accounted for...like execution. Like you, I have not reason to believe that any of the IF survived. I do now that for me to believe something, I need to have data, hard evidence. I also agree that it was really in poor taste for the forum administrator to use 911 as part of his argument.


Why wouldn't Yurovsky et al then just replace the two missing bodies with two other corpses (even if they had to do this later on) and be done with it, instead of making up an elaborate story about burning two bodies (and not even being sure which ones they burned in retelling)? That would make a lot more sense - if they were trying to cover up the missing children issue.... They wouldn't even have to kill a pair of other children to do this, since both Anastasia and Alexei were pretty much full grown. They could have just obtained a couple of bodies of small-ish adults (and it couldn't have been that hard during that time since, many people were getting killed in the civil war in that region), and disfigure them enough to pass for those two (sorry for being graphic). Why make up a story about burning the two bodies, then not even remembering the right bodies when retelling the story? That's the part that doesn't really make if this were a cover up....  


helenazar

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #142 on: April 06, 2005, 09:24:24 PM »
Quote
...it was really in poor taste for the forum administrator to use 911 as part of his argument.


What are you talking about?  ???

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #143 on: April 07, 2005, 10:17:11 AM »
Quote

Why wouldn't Yurovsky et al then just replace the two missing bodies with two other corpses (even if they had to do this later on) and be done with it, instead of making up an elaborate story about burning two bodies (and not even being sure which ones they burned in retelling)? That would make a lot more sense - if they were trying to cover up the missing children issue.... They wouldn't even have to kill a pair of other children to do this, since both Anastasia and Alexei were pretty much full grown. They could have just obtained a couple of bodies of small-ish adults (and it couldn't have been that hard during that time since, many people were getting killed in the civil war in that region), and disfigure them enough to pass for those two (sorry for being graphic). Why make up a story about burning the two bodies, then not even remembering the right bodies when retelling the story? That's the part that doesn't really make if this were a cover up....  



The part that really doesn't make sense is why no one can find the bodies which were buried near the mass grave?  Since the burning would have left only  charred corpses and they didn't use acid on their bodies then these bodies would be in better shape than those in the mass grave.  And, with everyone digging up Pigs Meadow, one would think they would have been found by this time.

We can speculate about Yuruovsky's and the other's testimonies  but it's the absence of the two missing, Alexei and one of his sisters, which tell us  Yurovsky and the other Bolsheviks were lying about what happened.

Far as we know,  Marie and Alexei could have escaped on her birthday.  What Alexandra and others wrote in the diaries about their presents could have been something they were told to write and  NOT something they wanted to write.  I, also, believe forgery  cannot be ruled out.....

Nicholas II refused to write anything for a number of days.

Or they were all still in the Impatiev House but the Germans came onto the scene on the night of 16 July, found everyone drunk, and they swept the eleven away but were hunted down by the Reds and were murdered later....  accept two, Alexei and Anastasia or Maria.

There are suggestions that it was the Reds who killed Nicholas II and Alexei then took Alexandra and the girls to Perm.  From here it is said that Anastasia escaped not once but twice from the CHEKA.

Or, maybe, the British or some independent Whites managed a rescue but it failed somewhere along the route of escape and nine of the eleven were found and executed.

Or, two survived the execution, and, two brothers or cousins rescued Alexei and one of his sisters. Only Alexei didn't survive but the one sister did....

We've gone over these possibiliities over and over and over but it seems to be the opinion of most that Alexei probably didn't survive very long after the 16th.

Then, again, there were Reds and Whites still looking for him as well as interviewing possible claimants for years.  Even the US believed a claimant was Alexei and actually transported him to the US but then it was proven he was not the real Alexei....

My speculations are no better or no worst than anyone elses, because many possible senarios are possible.  Why?  Because we just do not know what happened.

Until the bodies of Alexei and his sister are found, I'm sure we'll be continuing this conversation here and on other threads for months and even years to come.  Heck, I've been doing research since 1959, I was a Junior in High School,  and I'm still searching for the truth.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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lovebird

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #144 on: April 09, 2005, 06:41:46 PM »
DNA  WILL PROVE THE FACT
2 ARE MISSING
AND THEY NEVER CAME FORWARD BECAUSE  THEY WERE  TRAUMATIZED ,AND IN FEAR.

PERIOD.
OR  ELSE  FIND  ME THE  2 BODIES AND  MATCH WITH  DNA.
THIS WAS 1918 AND  THERE WAS  NO EXPLOSION   like  911.

HELLO  wake up
some one is hiding the truth from the world.



Lass

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #145 on: April 11, 2005, 08:36:01 AM »
Maybe I have missed it, but nowhere have I yet seen this question asked: Why distinguish between the Empress & Alexei, and the other members of the group? Why did the men feel the need to treat their bodies differently? To me, that appears suspiciously like a cover-up for something.

rskkiya

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #146 on: April 11, 2005, 09:00:10 AM »
Lass
   Well as far as the "Yurofsky report" his comment about attempting to burn Alexandria is incorrect because we have identified her body... I am of  the opinion that he - having been awake for over 72 hours at this point - was simply mistaken about which broken smashed female corpse was which, and attempted to destroy someone.
   Alexandra was generally disliked and many russians imagined her to have been a german spy. Alexis (as heir) would have been the object of some frustration in the eyes of the revolutionaries as the last of an autocratic line.

rskkiya

Lass

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #147 on: April 11, 2005, 10:51:04 AM »
Good point with regard to Alexandra's German connexions. Yes, that was a source of irritation to many Russians... I wonder why, though, they didn't pick the Tsar himself...?

helenazar

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #148 on: April 11, 2005, 03:29:40 PM »
Quote
I wonder why, though, they didn't pick the Tsar himself...?


Maybe because they weren't trying to hide that they had killed the tsar? Remember, they had publically announced that the tsar had been executed and that the rest of the family was "taken to a place of greater safety". Hence, if they were going to try to dispose of any bodies, of course it would be the other members of the family (or others who were killed with them) rather than the tsar... Maybe they initially thought that they could burn all of the bodies but the tsar's, then realized that it won't work after the first two didn't burn, gave up and reburied them elsewhere.... It would make sense. I think people are making a lot more of this than it was...

Lass

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Re: Claimants of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich
« Reply #149 on: April 11, 2005, 04:02:23 PM »
Interesting - thank you! :)