Author Topic: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history  (Read 116889 times)

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belianis

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Re: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history
« Reply #180 on: November 19, 2008, 07:10:28 PM »
... was a failed imitation of Austria-Hungary, with all of its weaknesses and none of its strengths?

Offline Marc

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Re: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history
« Reply #181 on: November 20, 2008, 12:04:29 AM »
Well,not an exact imitation because in Austro-Hungarian empire you had Austrians,Hungarians and Czechs(Slovakians) who were 3 different nations with different languages,different customs etc.

Yugoslavia in its borders had united nations who were more or less of the same origines(they were all of Slavic origine),who all had more or less the same maternal language-Serbian,Bosnian,Croatian,Montenegrian is ONE language with just different accent...only Macedonian and Slovenian are a bit different but people could also understand and comunicate with eachother...

In the end it was the same ending because everything that is artofficial could not last long...

belianis

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Re: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history
« Reply #182 on: November 20, 2008, 08:17:43 PM »
But was the collapse of Y inevitable and unavoidable? Things might have been radically different if Tito had put aside his antagonism with Franco and recognised that F had acted wisely in appointing and grooming a successor. A clear successor would obviously have been better than the committee that T left in charge--which was the same thing as leaving NOBODY in charge.
In addition, I have read that, before the crisis brought about by Milosevic that started the process of Y's collapse, the citizenry had sent to Belgrade more than 300 proposals to improve the national constitution. I would say that was a positive development, because it showed that the citizenry still had faith in the concept of a country that was an Union of the Southern Slavs.

Offline TimM

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Nicolae and Elena Ceausescu
« Reply #183 on: March 17, 2011, 12:23:11 AM »
I know these two were not Royalty per se, but they sure ACTED like they were.  They ran Romania between them, gave important government positions to family and friends, and their three children acted like spoiled Princes and a Princess (they had one daughter, two sons).  Furthermore, when Nicolae died, his oldest son, Nico, was to take over (much like Kim Jong Il took over from his old man, Kim Il Sung in North Korea).  This was not a Communist leader, this was a despotic king and his queen.   

Unfortunately, the Ceausescu's showed the WORST of Royalty the way they ran the country.  It was "Love us, or die."  Ceausescu called himself fancy names like "Genius Of The Carpathians" while Elena presented herself as a brilliant scientist (despite the fact that she flunked out of high school).  Of course, when you're co-ruler of a country, you can have as many doctorates as you want, because of ghost written papers. 

They lived in fancy houses, droves fancy cars, and wanted for nothing.  All this while their people starved.  They were building this big super palace in Bucharest when the Revolution of 1989 came.  When I heard they were executed, I felt no sympathy.  They died fast, unlike many of their victims.  I believe that had they just given up, like the other Communist leaders of Eastern Europe did in 1989, they might not have been executed (although they might have received prison sentences).  However, when they ordered the military to fire on the crowds, that was it.  When the military switched sides, it was game over.

So while these two were not officially royal autocrats, they sure played the part well, didn't they.
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Offline Svetabel

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Re: Nicolae and Elena Ceausescu
« Reply #184 on: March 17, 2011, 12:56:20 AM »
I know these two were not Royalty per se, but they sure ACTED like they were.  They ran Romania between them, gave important government positions to family and friends, and their three children acted like spoiled Princes and a Princess (they had one daughter, two sons).  Furthermore, when Nicolae died, his oldest son, Nico, was to take over (much like Kim Jong Il took over from his old man, Kim Il Sung in North Korea).  This was not a Communist leader, this was a despotic king and his queen.  

Unfortunately, the Ceausescu's showed the WORST of Royalty the way they ran the country.  It was "Love us, or die."  Ceausescu called himself fancy names like "Genius Of The Carpathians" while Elena presented herself as a brilliant scientist (despite the fact that she flunked out of high school).  Of course, when you're co-ruler of a country, you can have as many doctorates as you want, because of ghost written papers.  

They lived in fancy houses, droves fancy cars, and wanted for nothing.  All this while their people starved.  They were building this big super palace in Bucharest when the Revolution of 1989 came.  When I heard they were executed, I felt no sympathy.  They died fast, unlike many of their victims.  I believe that had they just given up, like the other Communist leaders of Eastern Europe did in 1989, they might not have been executed (although they might have received prison sentences).  However, when they ordered the military to fire on the crowds, that was it.  When the military switched sides, it was game over.

So while these two were not officially royal autocrats, they sure played the part well, didn't they.


I understand your point but they are not Royals, as you had said. So I merged your topic with this the Balkan History thread.

Offline TimM

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Re: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history
« Reply #185 on: March 17, 2011, 06:55:08 AM »
Okay, Svetlana (did I spell that right?).  Sorry about that, but I wasn't sure where to post it.
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Offline Превед

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Re: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history
« Reply #186 on: April 12, 2014, 05:19:50 PM »
It's so strange when people into Romanian royalty aren't into the Romanian language. It's such a fantastic corruption of Latin. It is said of Portuguese that's it a última flor do Lácio, inculta e bela, but that's even truer of Romanian: Ultima floare de latină, incult și frumos. A German dynasty, in an Orthodox, Romance-speaking, country with Transsilvanian folklore. Can things get more wonderfully weird!? (Well, yes, the Vlachs, but they are another story.)
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline TimM

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Re: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history
« Reply #187 on: August 16, 2015, 07:11:16 AM »
I saw this fascinating documentary on YouTube about Elena Ceausescu, the wife of Romanian dictator, Nicolae Ceausescu .  It was how she portrayed herself as this great scientist, she had all these fancy diplomas and doctorates. 

When, in reality, it was unlikely that the woman could read, let alone understand scientific formulas.  She was a phony through and through.  Of course, when your co-ruler of a country with absolute power, you can get away with this.

In fact, many think that, towards the end of their reign, it was SHE, not Nicolae, who was running the country.   When she and Nicolae were executed on Christmas Day, 1989, they really opened up on her.  For every one bullet Nicolae got, Elena got ten.  Shows how they felt about her.
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Offline Превед

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Re: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history
« Reply #188 on: August 16, 2015, 07:46:02 AM »
I saw this fascinating documentary on YouTube about Elena Ceausescu, the wife of Romanian dictator, Nicolae Ceausescu .  It was how she portrayed herself as this great scientist, she had all these fancy diplomas and doctorates.  

When, in reality, it was unlikely that the woman could read, let alone understand scientific formulas.  

From her Wikipedia article:
She was sometimes nicknamed "Codoi", referring to her alleged mispronunciation of the name of the chemical compound CO2 ("Co" being the C for carbon, O for oxygen, and "doi" being Romanian for "two"). She was mocked by many, including an official who called her by this nickname during her show trial. Contributing to the humorous effect, "codoi" is an actual word in Romanian, meaning "big tail".
:-)

From http://ru-royalty.livejournal.com/3273399.html:
Эмир-отец и шейха Моза: Продолжение отдыха в Хорватии*.
Бывший эмир Катара и его супруга шейха Моза продолжают тур по достопримечательностям Хорватии*.
=
The Emir Father and Sheikha Mozah: Continued holiday in Croatia*.
The former Emir of Qatar and his spouse, Sheikha Mozah, continue their sightseeing tour of Croatia*.

Хорватия = Khorvatiya = Croatia. Eureka, so khorvat / horvát of "Girls"'s star Hannah Horvath fame actually means Croatian - in both Russian and Hungarian it turns out!
Ödön von Horváth - Lol, what a multicultural name!

« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 08:00:52 AM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history
« Reply #189 on: August 16, 2015, 12:46:47 PM »

Хорватия = Khorvatiya = Croatia. Eureka, so khorvat / horvát of "Girls"'s star Hannah Horvath fame actually means Croatian - in both Russian and Hungarian it turns out!




Absolutely - and ironically it's also a really common surname in Hungary, Slovakia and Slovenia. It may indicate Croatian ancestry, or it may be that at one time they stuck it on everyone who spoke a Slavic language, especially in the Hungarian crown lands! (Croats had kind of equal status to Hungarians in their nominally joint kingdom, whereas the Slovaks - the peasant nation - did not, so may have been mislabelled more, IMHO).
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history
« Reply #190 on: August 16, 2015, 12:47:49 PM »
Croatia is also the origin of the word cravat. Seriously. :-)
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.

Offline TimM

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Re: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history
« Reply #191 on: August 16, 2015, 12:57:40 PM »
Quote
She was sometimes nicknamed "Codoi", referring to her alleged mispronunciation of the name of the chemical compound CO2 ("Co" being the C for carbon, O for oxygen, and "doi" being Romanian for "two"). She was mocked by many, including an official who called her by this nickname during her show trial. Contributing to the humorous effect, "codoi" is an actual word in Romanian, meaning "big tail".

So the "great scientist" couldn't even pronounce the chemical compound of carbon dioxide.

Of course, the old hag was no more a scientist than I am.  Except I never went around saying I was one.
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Offline Превед

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Re: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history
« Reply #192 on: August 16, 2015, 02:16:24 PM »
Croatia is also the origin of the word cravat. Seriously. :-)

Yeah, and in French, German and Polish necktie is still cravate, Krawatte and krawat. (All languages seem to have funny names for this funny piece of clothing: Scandinavian: slips, Russian; галстук, from German Halstuch, neck cloth, and Dutch das, from das, badger (think Dachs and tasso), because it's similar to the stripe on the animal's head!).

In Danish, Norwegian and Swedish krabat (stress on kraBA:T) (and in Low German: krabauter), allegedly also derived from the behaviour of the fancy-dressed Croatians during the 30 Years War, means wild, boisterous (male) toddler, boy, kid, lad. (Compare German alter Schwede, old Swede, affectionate (male-to-)male adress, derived from the Swedish veterans of the 30 Years War.)

Pan-European conclusion: A Crovatian krabat wearing a krawat.

BTW in Sorbian (our beloved Slavic minority language in Germany) Krabat is the name of some legendary folk hero wizard, derived from the ethnicity (and its link with the 30 Years War?) of Janko Šajatović / Johann Schadowitz, Electoral Saxon officer and lord of the manor of Groß-Särchen / Wulke Ždźary in Upper Lusatia. Did he become a Sorbian folk hero not only because of his benign lordship, but also because he, as a native Slavic-speaker, had a special bond with his Sorbian peasants? See https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krabat_%28Sage%29

BTW the Qatari royals enjoying a romantic tour of Croatia makes me hum Komm mit nach Varaždin.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 02:43:28 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history
« Reply #193 on: August 16, 2015, 05:34:39 PM »
In Danish, Norwegian and Swedish krabat (stress on kraBA:T) (and in Low German: krabauter), allegedly also derived from the behaviour of the fancy-dressed Croatians during the 30 Years War, means wild, boisterous (male) toddler, boy, kid, lad.

Ha! Well - the "Bosnian" regiments (composed of Serbs, Croats and Bosnians in the modern sense, from Bosnia-Herzegovina) were among the most decorated and feared Austro-Hungarian troops of world war one - because they were thought to be especially fierce, and they carried some pretty primitive weapons like knuckle-dusters. The Croats had the same reputation in the Italian wars of unification, and Italian troops carried a folk grudge against them until the 1920s for this reason. This is what come so living on the "military frontier" for hundreds of years....

BTW the Qatari royals enjoying a romantic tour of Croatia makes me hum Komm mit nach Varaždin.


Have they been to Varazdin? Cool. Most people on romantic tours would I think mainly go to the coast. I've never yet been to inland Croatia, but I've been very close to the border in eastern Slovenia, and I gather its culture is far more central European - and like both the Austrian and Slovenian parts of Styria - than the very Italianate coast is. Croatia's a diverse place for a really rather small country.....
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: The Balkans--their cultures, languages, religion and history
« Reply #194 on: August 17, 2015, 03:29:40 AM »
Did the 'Bosnian' regiments fight on the Serbian or Russian fronts, or only against the Italians?

Ann