DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific papers

[helenazar]

Here is one of the posts where the numbers was mentioned:


AGRBear

Thanks Bear. For one thing, this says 25-35 generations, not 10-25 as you stated. That's a big difference. This shows how easy it is to distort information if the source is unknown. This is exactly why I would like to see real refences for these things, not a "he said- she said" type of stuff. What you just posted was not the type of citation I was referring to - so we still don't know where these numbers came from. I think FA may have mentioned that he got these particular numbers from someone else but we are still not sure if they are accurate or if there is a published reference for them, or if they just came out of nowhere (like so many unreferenced things seem to)... Before we accept these or any other numbers, stats, etc, we need to know exactly their source, otherwise we should not keep stating them as fact. At the very least, if the original source can explain how they got these numbers (like DaveK did with his), then we can at least understand the reasoning behind them. Otherwise it seems like they are just random numbers thrown out there because they sound good. If you can find the source for these, it would be great, otherwise we are going to have to go by the numbers we can find sources for.

[helenazar]

... along with the 10-25 generation that they shared a common ancestor.

mtDNA mutates every 10-25 generations... , and AA matches CM, that means they share a maternal ancestor within the past 10-25 generations since their DNA matched.

Let's not continue stating this as fact, because we don't know if it is until we can see the published source of this information.

[Denise]

Let's not continue stating this as fact, because we don't know if it is until we can see the published source of this information.

Exactly!!  I was stating how I understood it, not that it was a fact.

[Denise]

I also want to say, the one reason I am HESITANT about having anything to do with this thread, is threats that were made on here last week.  I look at it as a situation which Penny had no choice but to respond as she did, after being threatened with a lawsuit.  Which was beyond ridiculous.  I don't see it as totally her fault at all, quite the opposite IMO.  

I think that the jeremy/Penny situation escalated into unpleasantness too quickly.  I do not think that the average poster here is going to threaten litigation if you disagree.  In the previously mentioned case, there were threats made by Penny, resulting in jeremy's response.



I do think you are correct, though, that some factual evidence of the police investigation on Grossman needs to be found. Any idea on how to find this?

Bear, does your book have any source material on the Grossman murders?  It might give us a place to start.  How many records actually survived the wars would also be a good question.  In any case, a record of Grossman's crimes untouched by the sensationalism found in most web pages would be a good starting point.

[helenazar]

I also want to say, the one reason I am HESITANT about having anything to do with this thread, is threats that were made on here last week.  I look at it as a situation which Penny had no choice but to respond as she did, after being threatened with a lawsuit.  

Michael, I am confused: what does this thread about DNA literature have to do with Penny's lawsuit threats last week?     This thread was just started yesterday, it didn't even exist last week. This thread has nothing to do with Penny.

Can we please stop bringing Penny into these discussions, she is no longer here and I don't think she would appreciate us continuously discussing her when she is not here (as she has stated in the past). If you want to continue discussing her with others, you should do it via PM and not on the public board. If you don't feel comfortable to be part of this thread, then you don't have to post anything, you can just read it.

So can we just move on and stick to the point?  Thanks.

Helen

[helenazar]

Exactly!!  I was stating how I understood it, not that it was a fact.

Oh yes, I know that, Denise. I just wanted to make sure that others understand that we should not present  anything as factual information until we have the appropriate references for it.

Also, I would like to remind you guys that this thread is meant for published scientific information about the Romanov case, and not for speculations about serial killers possibly murdering FS. This is now heading the way of all the other threads, and I would hate for that to happen. This was part of the original post:

I would like to restrict this topic to based-on-the-fact-arguments. I understand that it is also intriguing to explore your wild imagination regarding the DNA testing, but please post them in other topics. There are many interesting conspiracy theory related threads.  

Lets please try to stick to the topic, and if we want to speculate about serial killers murdering FS and present evidence for that, we can start another thread... Thanks  

[AGRBear]

Heresay has been the most difficult so-called evidence to counter because it is continued to be written and reposted and  reposted to the point that it takes on it's own life-like appearance which seems to  resemble facts, which it is not.

When it comes to DNA,  there are few of us here who can ask the right questions or give the right answers.   I did my quesioning over on the DNA thread.  Being a stuborn old bear,  I just plugged away until I had some of the questions answered.  And, Helen was the most helpfull on this subject.

I, also, hope that Penny and many other posters return but the majority have not.  And,  we have lost unknown amount of information because of this lost.  

If I remember Penny's posts,  she and Greg were plowing through a lot of information on both Grossmann and FS and family.  

I'm headed over to another thread.


AGRBear

[helenazar]

Heresay has been the most difficult so-called evidence to counter because it is continued to be written and reposted and  reposted to the point that it takes on it's own cloth of  resembling facts, which they are not.

Exactly! This is what we are going to hopefully try to avoid here on this thread, and this is why we should  ask for specific references for any statement or numbers presented here. This is the only way to keep hearsay and inaccurate info out of it.

When it comes to DNA,  there are few of us here who can ask the right questions or give the right answers.   I did my quesioning over on the DNA thread.  Being a stuborn old bear,  I just plugged away until I had some of the questions answered.  And, Helen was the most helpfull on this subject.

I am glad I was helpful. Hopefully more questions can be answered as we move along, while everyone, including me, can learn many more things from here!

[BaronessSophie]

Can we please stop bringing Penny into these discussions

Helen - I agree. Also, I admire the way you and Jeremy handled the situation.

Davek - Thanks for all you provided!

[Penny_Wilson]

...In the previously mentioned case, there were threats made by Penny, resulting in jeremy's response.

I did not threaten Jeremy.  This is what I said, word for word, as copied-and-pasted from his response to me:

"As for Jeremy, he will have to judge for himself the likelihood of being given an interview by the Schanzkowskys after making such an allegation against their ancestors.  He should not assume that his inadvisable remarks will never reach them."

Where's the threat?  I'm actually WARNING him about his unwise and unkind dissemination on a public forum of a "theory" that is completely without evidence, testimony or substantiation.

I stand by my warning.  People don't like having their families talked about as Jeremy did the Schanzkowskys -- and it would be a mistake to think that no Schanzkowsky ever gets on-line and googles around.

Jeremy's threat of a lawsuit against me was not the reason I left this board -- though obviously I still read it and maintain my account here.  

The reason I left is as the FA explained -- it was all too clear to me that I am neither liked nor welcomed by the marquee posters here -- one of them even told me that I am an embarrassment to Greg King, which I thought I hideous thing to say, given how closely Greg and I work together.  So ultimately, why would I want to stay around a bunch of people who treat me like dirt and don't value my input?

Edited to add: [glb] Thank you, Denise, for graciously sorting this out with me. I consider the matter settled amicably.  [/glb]

[helenazar]

Maybe we now need to start a thread where we can all discuss what happened to Penny? Can we please keep all this to PMs - this is ridiculous and childish.  This is why I said before that all this stuff needs to be handled via PMs and not on public boards. I hope that from now on we will all refrain from posting anything else about this incident.

[BaronessSophie]

Helen, I agree with you (again). Thank you for acting like an adult.

[Penny_Wilson]

Maybe we now need to start a thread where we can all discuss what happened to Penny? Can we please keep all this to PMs - this is ridiculous and childish.

Whenever I am misrepresented in public, I will correct it in public.  This is fair, I think.

 This is why I said before that all this stuff needs to be handled via PMs and not on public boards. I hope that from now on we will all refrain from posting anything else about this incident.

I'm sure that this solution will make you feel very comfortable.  Let's sweep it all under the rug and forget how some of you treated someone who tried to belong here.

[Penny_Wilson]

Helen, I agree with you (again). Thank you for acting like an adult.

How many of your fifteen posts have been spent on agreeing with Helen?  

[AGRBear]

Having felt the same "unwanted feeling" Penny has experienced, I think it is her right to defend herself on the thread on which she has been offended.

Evidently, some poster are not aware how their posts reads.

Maybe we now need to start a thread where we can all discuss what happened to Penny? Can we please keep all this to PMs - this is ridiculous and childish.  This is why I said before that all this stuff needs to be handled via PMs and not on public boards. I hope that from now on we will all refrain from posting anything else about this incident.

Helen,   Penny has a  right to defend herself and her doing so isn't childish nor ridiculous.

I don't have the energy these days to constantly defend all the people who are being pushed off these threads.  So, stop it.  And stop it, now.

I've got to  go but I think something needs to be done about this problem before we lose one more poster!!!!!!!!!!

AGRBear