Author Topic: Preserve Lenin or bury him?  (Read 31980 times)

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helenazar

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #135 on: October 16, 2005, 12:49:23 PM »
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Democracy in Russia will not be attained until the Red Square vacates not just Ulyanov's fungal remains, but all the ashes along it's ancient walls. As the late historian Dmitri Volkogonov noted - Lenin's remains serve as a testimony of the depth of the country's historic failure.
 


Although I agree about vacating the mausoleum and finally burying the guy's corpse, IMO the issues of attaining "democracy" in Russia goes far beyond keeping Lenin's remains in the Kremlin or not, as is the country's "historic failure". Lenin's remains did not cause this failure, the people did (and will continue to)...  

I am pretty sure that true democracy won't be attained in Russia for a long time to come as most of the people are not ready for it intellectually. Just as we don't really have "true democracy" in the US either... although we are a lot closer than (sadly) Russia will be for a long long time (Lenin's corpse or no).

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #136 on: October 16, 2005, 12:58:57 PM »
As a human being and a Christian woman, I despise many of Lenin's acts. However, his remains deserve to be treated with respect. I consider keeping him pickeled in Red Square to be highly disrespectful to him as a person, and also contrary to his stated wishes.

Whatever one thinks of Comrade Lenin, we must be mindful that his pickeling and presentation as a sort of Communist God are more indicative of the period of the most effecient mass murderer in history, Comrade Stalin.

As a Westerner, I am highly troubled by this relic of Stalinism remaining in Russia's most famous square. To me it means that Russia is not through the Cold War and is not the democracy she claims to be. The world needs a great Russia of the 21st century, and not one mired in the past.

It is up to Russia to decide her course. May God grant them the ability to repudiate an evil and troubled past.

helenazar

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #137 on: October 16, 2005, 01:12:50 PM »
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 To me it means that Russia is not through the Cold War and is not the democracy she claims to be.


Lisa, they are far from it, unfortunately. I hate to sound so pessimistic, but based on my first hand observations, Russia right now is an extremely dysfunctional society that will take a long long time to get "healthy". Just as in dysfunctional families each generation inherits the situation and the mentality, it is the same with a society. And as with families, it is extremely difficult to fix. I personally don't think it will be "fixed" during any of our lifetimes - it all just goes way too deep. Often, on the surface things may look kind of ok, but the longer you are exposed to it, the more you uncover layer after layer of things that you never suspected were there! And that's when you realize how hopeless things are.

I feel so sad for the Russian people, because most of them seem to realize this, but feel powerless to do anything. I too hope that one day they will be able to overcome it somehow, but I can't even begin to imagine how....  
:-[

Offline Belochka

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #138 on: October 16, 2005, 11:10:57 PM »
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Is not a concert beautiful?
rs


The idea of conducting open air concerts proximate to a political cemetery is inappropriate.

While there is beauty in some forms of music and song, there is no beauty in soviet hypocrasy, nor the tyranny innocent individuals faced every day of their lives.

It is the millions of innocents whose lives were ruined, who should be honored, not the maniac who deliberately deceived and destroyed a nation!

Few speak loudly for the millions who continue to lie in common pits without a name.

But the voice of stale bolsheviks rings out loud just for one.


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


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Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #139 on: October 17, 2005, 06:50:24 AM »
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It is the millions of innocents whose lives were ruined, who should be honored, not the maniac who deliberately deceived and destroyed a nation!

Few speak loudly for the millions who continue to lie in common pits without a name.



Well said!! Therefore put him out with the rubbish once and for all and honour those that suffered so terribly.
Grief is the price we pay for love.

FREE PALESTINE.

Tania

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #140 on: October 17, 2005, 11:26:19 AM »
My thoughts exactly Belochka, and Eddieboy!
In the old days, they used to 'burn' rubbish,
now all they do is 'throw' it out.

Yes indeed, when in doubt, throw it out !!!!

So it does not get lost, allow me to quote it once again of what dear Belochka stated above:

"While there is beauty in some forms of music and song, there is no beauty in soviet hypocrasy, nor the tyranny innocent individuals faced every day of their lives.  

It is the millions of innocents whose lives were ruined, who should be honored, not the maniac who deliberately deceived and destroyed a nation!

Few speak loudly for the millions who continue to lie in common pits without a name."

Tatiana




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Well said!! Therefore put him out with the rubbish once and for all and honour those that suffered so terribly.


rskkiya

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #141 on: October 17, 2005, 06:55:11 PM »
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As a human being and a Christian woman, I despise many of Lenin's acts. However, his remains deserve to be treated with respect. I consider keeping him pickeled in Red Square to be highly disrespectful to him as a person, and also contrary to his stated wishes.


This is kind, honorable and thoughtful.
I am not a christian but I must agree with this view - rather than those who would 'chuck the dust out with the rubbish', although I can understand their reasons.

(I actually think that a lovely concert would be delightful in a cemetary - so that the shades of the living and the dead would have something sweet to enjoy...)


But what do I know...
rskkiya
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Tania

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #142 on: October 17, 2005, 08:10:50 PM »
The communists always placed strong emphasis on what they thought the message should be. There was no other way of thinking. Thus came about, mind control, but those times in Russia, and countless other nations, are no more. Russia is free from Lenin, free from communism. Hurrah! Hurrah, Hurrah!

The reasoning to hold a concert, is to me is somewhat like the Nazi's who insisted from the concentration camp victims, who were musicians, to play in the center of the camp, while the Nazi's took countless millions of concentration camp victims to be gassed, shot, etc.

Of course in the Nazi's twisted minds, the music was lovely, but why should one oppose such actions when one is going to one's death with 'beautiful music’? You should put all other thoughts out of your mind, and just listen to the 'beautiful music', or think of the quiet shaded place you will eventually lie in....Get a grip lady!

The point again, for the living, to even be entertained with your thought is monstrous that there should be a concert, while lenin is being buried!

What do you think the countless lives of those who remained across the globe, would feel at such a concert, and of their children, and grandchildren who remain to this day without anything of 'sweet memories' to what lenin did to their loved ones, and their children ?

When one is dead, true, you don't feel anything, but it is for the living we must remember, and offer to date, of how we make closure of one of history's greatest mass murders.
Lenin will be buried, but to give pomp, etc., is more than he gave his victims. Lenin at least receives a sign with his name on it. That's enough!

How fortunate out of all dust of the earth, lenin can be claimed amongst the millions he killed, who were given nothing, except mass executions, and thrown into endless pits.

There are those of you whom claim each time to have feelings... Each time you cry loudly in each post every time you see one name, that of your comrade lenin. Of all mentioned in the post, you defend lenin, instead of the millions upon millions he killed, every time.  

Over 80 years, the communist régime strangled the Russian people literally and physically. Enough is Enough. Lenin had his evil way with the people, and a whole country.

It is now up to democratic peoples in Russia, to take control, bury him with the least ceremony available. He is already dead and pickled, now it's time to deep six him!

rskkiya

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #143 on: October 17, 2005, 08:24:23 PM »
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 You should put all other thoughts out of your mind, and just listen to the 'beautiful music', or think of the quiet shaded place you will eventually lie in....Get a grip lady!

The point again, for the living, to even be entertained with your thought is monstrous that there should be a concert, while lenin is being buried!

Bury him with the least ceremony available.


I agree with some sort of cremation or burial.

   But why am I now considered a Nazi and 'one who cries loudly at the name of Lenin"? Because I like concerts?
   Have I ever denied that Lenin made many many mistakes? NO! Have I EVER claimed that he was a saint? NO!  
   Please Tania this last post is very emotional and a bit irrational. I would have pm'ed you - but you have requested that I not send you any private messages...
   I cannot seem to have any sort of civil chat with you at all... and I am saddened by that.

I will endevour to avoid you in the future.
rskkiya  

Tania

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #144 on: October 17, 2005, 09:06:59 PM »
Where did you see in my above post, that I called you or anyone on this thread, a Nazi ?

There you go again with inuendos.
I only gave analogy that what you suggested, in having a concert, was like the Nazi's asking victims to play, while others were sent to their deaths.

Please read what is there, not what you want to put a spin on.

The saying 'get a grip', means in english, get a hold on reality.

I like concerts, and so do many others here. I find no fault with you or anyone liking concerts. Your missing the point again! Why do you always make it a point to cry out that you are being attacked? It's not about you, it's your ability to reason...and your thinking about how others feel.

My statements arereality based. Your offering a concert is not reality based. [Now, don't get emotional on me].

There was no name calling, nor my losing it. I simply made a statement. In reading what you offered, it immediately resonated, and I shared the first visual thought that came into my mind, where you wrote about having 'a concert'.  What, you did not expect any reaction...i think you wrote it, because you wanted reactions!

Perhaps you want to make me think your missing the point, but you are far to smart to be thought of as not being able to reason, imh!.

Whattttt, you think the murder of millions of people, is a 'mistake'. It's more than just a word. It in reality was more than a mistake !!!! It was catastrophic !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lenin by his consent, and signature, killed innoncents.

As I said, one murder is terrible, but we are talking about millions. It may mean nothing to you, or to many others, but to me, they were human beings, first, last, always. [It affected me, my whole family, so naturally, did you expect me to agree with any communist? I think I have a vote in saying what should happen to Lenin, more than any communist. Lives were more than robbed, with no integrity at all left. So why should lenin be offered any?]

Here we agree, Lenin was not a saint.

To put his name alongside anyone who might be depicted as a saint, would be more than outrageous... for he was a #1 Monster, alongside Stalin. Brothers in crime, brothers in hardened murder, brothers in betrayal of humankind.

The above is my whole point, nothing more. You once told me, you could not allow anyone to bismirch the name of Lenin. Well, i can, i did, i will.  :-*

It's true, I asked you not to pm me personally, because you fail to understand my points. I really can't trust your posts, as you get highly emotional. You somehow fail at times to understand. Then attack without really under standing my full meaning. It does not produce good communication at all. Posting this way, it remains above board, and civil, somewhat.

I have no personal feelings against you. My thrust is as you can see, that I'm just not at home with communism, nor those whom love communism. I will always speak out and against communism, and all who stood in leadership to promote communism.

This is an open website to post my thoughts, feelings, as I fell able to, and keep it within bounds of fairness. I believe I have and continue to do so. Have a good evening.

Tatiana




helenazar

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #145 on: October 17, 2005, 09:09:17 PM »
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Russia is free from communism. Hurrah! Hurrah, Hurrah!


Tania, did you know that many people in Russia today are very nostalgic for communism, particularly the older people? And if you would see what happened to them after the old system fell apart, you would understand them! I am not in any way an advocate of communism, but things are really not as black and white as so many people seem to think. After I lived in Russia for 5 weeks this summer, and learned many things about the present system, and I myself almost became nostalgic for communism!  Or at least for something that wasn't as drastically different from what these people were used to. It's easy for us to sit here and say "Thank goodness there is no more communism in Russia", etc., but when you actually encounter real people who lived and worked under the old system and thought that their future was secure, and who suddenly found themselves pennyless and virtually pensionless, you may think twice.

Sadly, many Russian people don't have that many reasons to rejoice at this point about the fall of communism.... The new system is not any better, and possibly worse, and it may take many many years to improve it... if ever. I wish Russia could have come up with another system before making a complete 360 to a whole other system they don't know the first thing about, but they didn't  - and everyting changed too quickly hence many people are suffering now: especially the elderly - who would have been very secure under the old system...  I am not saying all this to make anyone mad, I really did have a sort of a revelation this summer that things are not at all black and white... People need to understand this.

Tania

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #146 on: October 17, 2005, 09:57:55 PM »
Hi Helen,

I only was in Russia for a little than a month. But, I more than sincerely realize, and know first hand about how people in Russia feel about communism, especially the old people. We still have relatives in Russia. So, I'm not just talking out to let off steam, nor anger, etc.

Most think I don't understand, nor can I effectively differentiate before the revolution, during, after, and after the fall of communism. I know and understand. But thank you for your taking time to make the points you have. Many whom post here have never lived under communism, never even travelled to a communist country, or never met a communist. lol. Many post because they think it to be romantic, or want others to respond to them, and their posts, or for whatever reason they have invested in being heard...

I know nothing to date is 'black or white', in Russia today. They have many, many problems, and by their own statements on government, much has to be changed, and rectified to date. Yes, it's going to be a long process to pull a real working political system together that is free of murder, betrayal, corruption.
I pray for Russia's deliverance each and every day.

Still, I believe it has to come with exactly the closure if you will, with Commrade Lenin's burial. This is a deep and old wound, that caused one of the greatest of fears in the eastern block countries, as well in the whole of Russia. A lot was promised, but millions upon millions were killed, just to prop up a political system, that in the end has died. The old must give way to the young, so that they can build on a lasting system, that will encourage freedom, and insure all that free nations live in and under.

What is outrageous, was that the Communist when they took control, gave not thought to the elderly, the disenfranchised, the disabled, the little children. They slaughtered, disabled, took control, robbed many countries of their everyday freedoms.

Now the elderly are afraid of losing communism? How short their memory is. As the old addage states, 'what goes around, come around'. They unfortunately thought they would never have to account, nor have to deal with their past. Unfortunately, the time has come indeed for all of Russia to respond in a way that will close off once and for all the old communist ways. Each life has to stand for justice, and effectively put into place a lasting quality government. It's time for Russia to do so.

Now it's truely time for conscience to kick in to make sure the Russian people have it right this time around, to making sure everyone has a real say in government, for a free government. With Lenin's burial, should come the undertaking of real repairations, and asking of real forgiveness of the communist crimes. Only then will Russia break free.

Example that may help in moving on: in the United States, companies are realizing they can no longer undertake to pay the full coverage of health accords, etc. They have stated employees, and unions must start paying themselves, into the health system. No more free rides. This is hitting people who are close to retirement, if not already retired. People are starting to panick, and wondering where their next sou will come from, as many companies are folding. This is no news here or abroad, for it is affecting everyone. What do we do, how do we pay, where will we live, do we pay for food or medicine? Do we eat food, or food we give our pets.

This is almost the same of what is happening in a sense to those in Russia. Sacrifices are asked for, sacrifices are made, so that the company, will survive. This is not happening just in one company, but across the United States. I understand it from an economic sense, though I know it affects many in the old billfold. Times change, people change, needs change. It's part of everyday living. You change with the world, the world does not change for you alone. But together as a free peoples, we can and must make real changes that neither endanger, kill, or sabatoge freedoms, or human kind.

But, we are not talking now about economics, nor jobs, etc. We are addressing how to best close off a past with a more than notorious leader, who had little care about anything, save his own ego, etc. What really gets me is that we are still supposed to pay homage to a despot, when not even a third of the bodies, and names of his victims will never be known, or found?

I think the whole question has been to bury or keep Lenin waxed. How closure is accomplished is very important.

I don't think any big or small pomp and cermony is needed. That already was done,  when lenin died, and it's time to move on, and put that energy to creating a lasting leadership that has full confidence of a free Russia.

Thank you again for being so kind as to find time to respond to my post. I wish you well.

Tatiana

Tania

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #147 on: October 17, 2005, 10:01:34 PM »
Rskkiya,   :D

Please, do not pm me. Thank you !

Tatiana

rskkiya

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #148 on: October 18, 2005, 06:21:30 PM »
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. You once told me, you could not allow anyone to bismirch the name of Lenin. Well, i can, i did, i will.  :-*


Tatiana




I NEVER EVER SAID THAT IN A PRIVATE OR A PUBLIC POST!

Perhaps you have mistaken my posts for those of  someone else - would you please "quote" this post?

rs
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

helenazar

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Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #149 on: October 18, 2005, 10:45:41 PM »
I am sorry for getting off topic, so I am going to try to make this reply brief.

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Still, I believe it has to come with exactly the closure if you will, with Commrade Lenin's burial..... the time has come indeed for all of Russia to respond in a way that will close off once and for all the old communist ways. Each life has to stand for justice, and effectively put into place a lasting quality government. It's time for Russia to do so. Now it's truely time for conscience to kick in to make sure the Russian people have it right this time around, to making sure everyone has a real say in government, for a free government. With Lenin's burial, should come the undertaking of real repairations, and asking of real forgiveness of the communist crimes. Only then will Russia break free.
 


I absolutely agree that Lenin should be buried, he really does not belong there and never did. But my reasons for feeling this way are different from yours. I don't think that burying Lenin is going to help the Russian society in getting themselves "together", although it certainly won't hurt, but this is not the issue for them at all. This is just the problem: the Russian people seem unable to do it... It all sounds very noble and wonderful, but in reality in order to be able to achieve this the society needs to have the "right" kind of a mentality, and the Russian people are not there yet. In fact, they are still very far away. And I don't mean that individual people are not there, there are many who are, the problem is that as a society they just cannot get it together. I am not sure how to explain that... In the west, it took many centuries to get to the point we're at today (and we are not in any way perfect, but we are more of a "functional" society). Think of magna carta and how much time has passed since then. The society must learn to crawl before it walks, it can't jump over all the steps necessary to succeed and still succeed. It has to go through the steps gradually. Russia wants to do it all at once and of course they fail... They want things to happen quickly, but things never will work the right way if they happen quickly, what's going to happen is that they will just end up with a facade, but underneath this facade things will  still the same... Which is what happened in Russia. on the surface, things looks right, beneath it - it's a mess....

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Example that may help in moving on: in the United States, companies are realizing they can no longer undertake to pay the full coverage of health accords, etc. They have stated employees, and unions must start paying themselves, into the health system. No more free rides. This is hitting people who are close to retirement, if not already retired. People are starting to panick, and wondering where their next sou will come from, as many companies are folding. This is no news here or abroad, for it is affecting everyone. What do we do, how do we pay, where will we live, do we pay for food or medicine? Do we eat food, or food we give our pets.
This is almost the same of what is happening in a sense to those in Russia.


I honestly don't think you can compare anything that has been happening in the US to what is been happening in Russia. It's like when a very rich person says "I am broke" which means they can't buy an extra car, compared to a truly poor person saying 'I'm broke" which means they can't buy food. In the States, these financial reforms may mean for, say, the senior citizen - moving from a house into a condo perhaps, and owning a Ford instead of a Lexus. Or even moving to a smaller apartment and not owning a car at all. In Russia, for an elderly person it may mean going from a studio flat to a room in a boarding house. Or from having three regular meals a day to having to beg in the street and subsist on bread and milk.

Not the same at all, you really can't compare....

Well, so much for being brief ! ;)