Author Topic: Preserve Lenin or bury him?  (Read 31983 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline RichC

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #150 on: October 19, 2005, 08:46:22 AM »
Quote
I am sorry for getting off topic, so I am going to try to make this reply brief.

I honestly don't think you can compare anything that has been happening in the US to what is been happening in Russia. It's like when a very rich person says "I am broke" which means they can't buy an extra car, compared to a truly poor person saying 'I'm broke" which means they can't buy food. In the States, these financial reforms may mean for, say, the senior citizen - moving from a house into a condo perhaps, and owning a Ford instead of a Lexus. Or even moving to a smaller apartment and not owning a car at all. In Russia, for an elderly person it may mean going from a studio flat to a room in a boarding house. Or from having three regular meals a day to having to beg in the street and subsist on bread and milk.

Not the same at all, you really can't compare....



I'm not sure it's worthwhile to compare what's happening in Russia to what's happening in the United States, but I want to say that the statements above regarding what it means for an American to "cut back" don't apply to me or most Americans I know.  Most American's I know would be in real trouble if they missed even a one or two paychecks.    I'm talking being out on the street.  I'm sure there are a lot of people for whom "cutting back" does mean switching to a ford (the kind of used car I drive, BTW) from a Lexus; but for a great many, "cutting back" means not being able to pay the rent...

helenazar

  • Guest
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #151 on: October 19, 2005, 09:03:17 AM »
Quote

I'm not sure it's worthwhile to compare what's happening in Russia to what's happening in the United States, but I want to say that the statements above regarding what it means for an American to "cut back" don't apply to me or most Americans I know.  Most American's I know would be in real trouble if they missed even a one or two paychecks.    I'm talking being out on the street.  I'm sure there are a lot of people for whom "cutting back" does mean switching to a ford (the kind of used car I drive, BTW) from a Lexus; but for a great many, "cutting back" means not being able to pay the rent...


Yes, this may be true, but what I should have also added before (which is actually my most important point) is that when this happens, in the US and other western coutnries there are generally government programs available to help those who have nothing (at least for now): i.e. food stamps, medicaid, section 8 housing, etc.

In Russia - there is absolutely nothing like that - as far as I know. So if you are an 80 year old pensioner who ends up with nothing for one reason or another- then you could die of starvation or disease basically, unless your children (if they are able) or some private charity helps you, but there are not enough charities to go around! I have seen countless little babushkas in the streets of St Petersburg and Moscow begging for a few kopeks - I have never seen so many elderly begging in the streets in my life - and I have been to many many major cities all over the world. And not only that, but from my conversations with people about this issue, most don't seem to think it's anything that unusual. They feel sorry about it of course, but they don't seem to feel that there is anything that can be done about it, they seem to perceive it as almost a normal state of things :"what can we do?" ... This is one of the sad reasons why I feel that Russia remains a dysfunctional society long after the fall of communism, and is probably going to be this way for a long long time ...  :(

And also, my "Lexus" example was just one type of example , I also mentioned that some may have to give up owning a car completely, you missed that I think. In Russia owning a car - any car, even a used Ford, is still a luxuary most people can't afford.

Helen (who currently happily drives a Hyundai ;))
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Caleb

  • Guest
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #152 on: October 23, 2005, 03:03:58 PM »
Here's another interesting article on the isssue of burying Lenin, in the "Yahoo!" news section that was only released today about 2 hours ago that was staring me right in the face.


MOSCOW - For more than six decades, glorious military parades and throngs of solemn Soviet citizens passed by the Red Square mausoleum where Vladimir Lenin's mummified corpse lies under glass. Then history passed him by.

ADVERTISEMENT


Now, nearing the 15th anniversary of the death of the Soviet Union, a debate is brewing about whether it's time to bury the body of the man who tried to bury capitalism.

The debate isn't new. What's different this time are the intriguing hints that President     Vladimir Putin is agreeable to a burial. He's often accused of taking Russia back to old Soviet ways, and removing the father of the Soviet Union from public display could be a way of deflecting the criticism.

The aura of the mausoleum has been dimming for years. The goose-stepping honor guards are gone. The long lines of devoted pilgrims have given way to small knots of visitors, largely foreign tourists, entering the hushed, austere dark red stone structure.

In the minute or less before finger-snapping guards usher them out, they see a suit-clad corpse on its back, its goateed face rouged. It's so well preserved after 81 years under glass that some wonder if it's a dummy.

At the last military parade in Red Square, a reviewing stand blocked the six-tier, dark red mausoleum from sight. That may have been an early warning that authorities were rethinking its presence.

This fall the debate went public when Georgy Poltavchenko, a prominent aide to Putin, unexpectedly told a news conference: "Our country has been shaken by strife, but only few were held accountable for that in their lifetime. I don't think it's fair that those who initiated that strife remain in the center of our state near the Kremlin."

Poltavchenko said his opinion was strictly personal. But in the tightly controlled culture of the Kremlin, officials rarely sound off to no purpose. His comments were seen as a way of testing public reaction to an idea that Putin might want to execute.

That belief was reinforced last week when St. Petersburg governor Valentina Matviyenko, seen as close to Putin, renewed the call.

"We're not Egyptians," she said.

Egyptian mummification is, of course, ancient history, and in modern times, embalming for permanent public display is a predominantly communist affair — China's Mao Zedong, Ho Chi Minh of Vietnam, Kim Il Sung of     North Korea.

In those countries, burying them simply isn't up for discussion. But in post-Soviet Russia, the taboo is gone. Yet reaction has been both predictable and surprising.

The Communist Party, still popular among Russia's poor and elderly, was outraged.

"It defies the nation's history and commonsense," party leader Gennady Zyuganov said. "With their filthy hands and drunken heads they are crawling into the sanctuary of the state."

The Communists' ire was stoked further by this month's pomp-filled reburial of Gen. Anton Denikin, a general who fought against the Red Army during Russia's civil war, and whom authorities now cast as a patriot.

But Lenin's ideological enemies have also demurred on Lenin.

"This matter shouldn't be stirred up," Dmitry Mitrokhin, deputy head of the liberal Yabloko party, was quoted as saying in the newspaper Gazeta. "Even if he is buried with all honors ... all the same it will be provocative."

Putin himself has played to pro-Soviet public sentiment with moves such as restoring the Soviet melody to the new Russian anthem.

In 2001, Putin said burying Lenin would suggest Soviets "had lived in vain." But he may now want to undermine the Communists and portray them as a party in thrall to discredited ideas.

Burial, however, could be risky given growing resentment over the fraying of the Soviet social safety net. In the past year, unprecedented mass demonstrations have broken out against Putin's move to eliminate many Soviet-era privileges of the elderly and World War II veterans, and this month millions of public workers struck for a day to protest bare-bones salaries.

While Putin himself is constitutionally barred from running in the 2008 presidential election, he is widely expected to try to anoint a successor and so his legacy will be very much a campaign issue.

An opinion poll released Thursday by the Levada Analytical Center said 40 percent of the 1,600 Russians surveyed last week believe Lenin's body should remain in the mausoleum and 51 percent think it should be buried. No margin of error was given. Last year a survey by VTsIOM found that at least one-quarter of Russians still regard Lenin as having moved Russia forward.

That minority's loyalty to him is intense.

"They should leave him in the mausoleum, at least until our generation dies out ... He brought us justice," declared 75-year-old Valentina Vasilyeva, who was standing near the mausoleum trying to peddle defunct Soviet-era bank notes to tourists.

The ironies are strong. Lenin himself wanted to be buried next to his mother in St. Petersburg. But his successor, Josef Stalin, ordered him put on display, apparently to create a cult which he could harness. Stalin's body lay next to Lenin's from his death in 1953 until eight years later when Nikita Khrushchev, on a campaign against the dictator's murderous legacy, had him buried along the Kremlin wall where most other Soviet leaders also lie.

Another irony is that although Lenin was a vehement atheist, many supporters of burial use the argument that having a body on display is unfitting for a Christian country.

Russian-born Svetlana Boym, whose book "The Future of Nostalgia" studied Communist symbols and post-Communist countries' sense of history, suggested that the calls to inter Lenin are not aimed at burying Communism but at stifling discussion of a painful era.

"It's very curious to me — not an attempt to deal with the Soviet past, but an attempt to re-Christianize Lenin," she said.

Whatever one's ideology, the mausoleum is a tourist draw, as Moscow investment banker Igor Yurgens noted, reversing Matviyenko's "Egyptians" remark.

"I think it shouldn't be touched ...," Gazeta quoted him as saying. "It's a tourist point, as curious an object as the pyramid of Cheops in Egypt.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Caleb »

Offline RichC

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #153 on: October 23, 2005, 07:50:52 PM »
Quote

Russian-born Svetlana Boym, whose book "The Future of Nostalgia" studied Communist symbols and post-Communist countries' sense of history, suggested that the calls to inter Lenin are not aimed at burying Communism but at stifling discussion of a painful era.

"It's very curious to me — not an attempt to deal with the Soviet past, but an attempt to re-Christianize Lenin," she said.



This is why I believe that if they do bury Lenin (or cremate him), it's important to keep the mausoleum intact.  Turn the mausoleum in a museum.

elfwine

  • Guest
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #154 on: October 23, 2005, 07:58:02 PM »
That's a great idea ... but it will take a good deal longer before anyone in Russia is quite ready for this.

Lenin - idolized by some/cursed by others - is as much a part of Russian history as Great Peter and Ivan the Awsome, yet very few - I think - would wish to unearth them from their graves...


elf


i need a better icon... :-[

Offline Merrique

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 896
  • aka Yekaterina Yevgenievna
    • View Profile
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #155 on: November 15, 2005, 08:30:29 PM »
Here's an interesting tidbit to add to this discussion.

Church Official: Lenin Should Be Buried

MOSCOW - A top Russian Orthodox official said Tuesday the church believes the body of Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin should be removed from a Red Square mausoleum and buried, Russian news agencies said.

With the 15th anniversary of the death of the Soviet Union nearing, a debate has been brewing on whether to bury Lenin's body, which has been on display in a mausoleum just outside the Kremlin since 1924.

"Lenin should be buried, because the idea of mummification is outside any cultural and religious context in Russia," Interfax and ITAR-Tass quoted the Russian Orthodox Church's Metropolitan Kirill as saying.

Kirill, who heads the church's external relations department, called the public display of the body "an artificial phenomenon with some sort of very strange mysticism," the reports said.

In an apparent Kremlin attempt to gauge public reaction on the body's removal, a regional envoy of President     Vladimir Putin said in September that Lenin's body should be taken from the mausoleum and buried.

Several senior lawmakers in the Kremlin-controlled parliament then proposed he be buried.

Communist Party chief Gennady Zyuganov warned his party would stage a massive civil disobedience action if authorities tried to remove the body of the founder of the Soviet state. The Communists launched a petition drive against such a move.

The Russian Orthodox Church was harshly persecuted under officially atheist Communist rule, after the 1917 revolution, but has experienced a strong resurgence since the Soviet collapse of 1991.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051115/ap_on_re_eu/russia_lenin_s_tomb
Don't knock on Death's door....ring the doorbell and run. He hates that.:D

Tania

  • Guest
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #156 on: November 15, 2005, 09:14:52 PM »
Dear Merrique,

Thank you for sharing the information below. I'm in full agreement lenin should be buried, per statement of The Russian Orthodox Church's Metropolitan Kirill. I'm sure the petition by the communists, will not pass.

It's good to see in particular, that our Holy Russian Orthodox Church is once again enlarging our Russian Orthodox Church flock, after so many terrible endless years of extremes of hardships to the clergy, and to the many believers. I pray the church will grow stronger and much larger with each and every passing moment. Thanks be to God!

Tatiana

Quote
Here's an interesting tidbit to add to this discussion.

 Church Official: Lenin Should Be Buried

MOSCOW - A top Russian Orthodox official said Tuesday the church believes the body of Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin should be removed from a Red Square mausoleum and buried, Russian news agencies said.

With the 15th anniversary of the death of the Soviet Union nearing, a debate has been brewing on whether to bury Lenin's body, which has been on display in a mausoleum just outside the Kremlin since 1924.

"Lenin should be buried, because the idea of mummification is outside any cultural and religious context in Russia," Interfax and ITAR-Tass quoted the Russian Orthodox Church's Metropolitan Kirill as saying.

Kirill, who heads the church's external relations department, called the public display of the body "an artificial phenomenon with some sort of very strange mysticism," the reports said.

In an apparent Kremlin attempt to gauge public reaction on the body's removal, a regional envoy of President     Vladimir Putin said in September that Lenin's body should be taken from the mausoleum and buried.

Several senior lawmakers in the Kremlin-controlled parliament then proposed he be buried.

Communist Party chief Gennady Zyuganov warned his party would stage a massive civil disobedience action if authorities tried to remove the body of the founder of the Soviet state. The Communists launched a petition drive against such a move.

The Russian Orthodox Church was harshly persecuted under officially atheist Communist rule, after the 1917 revolution, but has experienced a strong resurgence since the Soviet collapse of 1991.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051115/ap_on_re_eu/russia_lenin_s_tomb


Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #157 on: November 15, 2005, 10:08:36 PM »
Quote
Here's another interesting article on the isssue of burying Lenin, in the "Yahoo!" news section that was only released today about 2 hours ago that was staring me right in the face.


Thank you Caleb.

Quote
At the last military parade in Red Square, a reviewing stand blocked the six-tier, dark red mausoleum from sight. That may have been an early warning that authorities were rethinking its presence.


I noticed this phenomenon whilst watching the parade earlier this year via satellite. With so many leaders and VIP's from around the world observing the ceremonies, as invited guests, it was a very powerful message indeed.



Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #158 on: November 15, 2005, 10:18:46 PM »
Quote
Communist Party chief Gennady Zyuganov warned his party would stage a massive civil disobedience action if authorities tried to remove the body of the founder of the Soviet state.


In the dead of the long winter Moscow night, with temperatures well below freezing ...

Zyuganov may want to incite an illlegal act of civil disobedience, but one can only wonder whether his words will fail to meet their mark.
 :P


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline tobik

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 54
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #159 on: November 16, 2005, 09:13:56 AM »
Quote

This is why I believe that if they do bury Lenin (or cremate him), it's important to keep the mausoleum intact.  Turn the mausoleum in a museum.


Though it is perhaps not the central issue at stake, a point ought to be made about the architectural importance of the Mausoleum.

It is a very fine example of Constructivist architecture, unique in its use of high quality materials, and one that should under no circumstances be destroyed.

All over Moscow the wonderful examples of Constructivism are being destroyed through deliberate neglect - Rusakov Centre, Melnikov house etc, so to destroy such an important monument as the Mausoleum would in my view be almost as great a folly as knocking down St.Basil's.  

Further to this, destroying the mausoleum would be an attempt to erase history, not dissimilar to the iconoclasm of the Bolsheviks in 1917.  The Communist symbolic power of the Mausoleum is undoubtedly still strong, but its presence on Red Square will serve in years to come as a timely reminder (as Auschwitz now does) of a despotic regime.

Symbols and objects can always be reinterpreted.  Different generations will always place a different set of values on inanimate objects, be they works of art, buildings or everyday objects.

Please remove Lenin by all means, but lets not try and pretend that Communism never happened by erasing all trace of it.  Freud would not agree but I say, let proceeding generations carry the knowledge and guilt of their forefather's actions.  As the famous Cicero comment goes, 'he who does not know history is destined to remain a child forever.'

Tania

  • Guest
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #160 on: November 16, 2005, 01:58:17 PM »
Tobik,

I believe that all sides and perspectives should be offered. Only when we see in it's entirety can any person really offer the best of insights and or outcomes.

Too fast at times is there a rush to assume, and or to offer judgement, without addressing all the particulars of any given issue. How can we make any educated bottom line, if we don't have real facts to see, etc. ?

In particular your reference as you have stated :

Quote
'Please remove Lenin by all means, but lets not try and pretend that Communism never happened by erasing all trace of it.  Freud would not agree but I say, let proceeding generations carry the knowledge and guilt of their forefather's actions.  As the famous Cicero comment goes, 'he who does not know history is destined to remain a child forever.'


This gives the most powerful action for memory possible.
[For many, Communism still remains as a despotic regime].

To this day, Auschwitz remains, that future generations will not forget, and that it will never happens again.

Sometimes we see, read, hear, and even convey things we should not, [or another should not], but, if we did not hear that it ever transpired, or existed, we would not fully be able to address these issues at all. Better to know everything, even if it crushes our hearts. Only from those direct understandings will we then be better prepared, and our children will be better educated on any given issue.

As you closed your post, so again do I offer it :

"As the famous Cicero comment goes, 'he who does not know history is destined to remain a child forever"

Thank you.

Tatiana



Quote

Though it is perhaps not the central issue at stake, a point ought to be made about the architectural importance of the Mausoleum.

It is a very fine example of Constructivist architecture, unique in its use of high quality materials, and one that should under no circumstances be destroyed.

All over Moscow the wonderful examples of Constructivism are being destroyed through deliberate neglect - Rusakov Centre, Melnikov house etc, so to destroy such an important monument as the Mausoleum would in my view be almost as great a folly as knocking down St.Basil's.  

Further to this, destroying the mausoleum would be an attempt to erase history, not dissimilar to the iconoclasm of the Bolsheviks in 1917.  The Communist symbolic power of the Mausoleum is undoubtedly still strong, but its presence on Red Square will serve in years to come as a timely reminder (as Auschwitz now does) of a despotic regime.

Symbols and objects can always be reinterpreted.  Different generations will always place a different set of values on inanimate objects, be they works of art, buildings or everyday objects.

Please remove Lenin by all means, but lets not try and pretend that Communism never happened by erasing all trace of it.  Freud would not agree but I say, let proceeding generations carry the knowledge and guilt of their forefather's actions.  As the famous Cicero comment goes, 'he who does not know history is destined to remain a child forever.'


elfwine

  • Guest
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #161 on: November 17, 2005, 07:56:19 PM »
If Lenin was not an Orthodox believer he ought not have an Orthodox service of burial.

Can he not simply be buried without any religious service?

Maybe it's better that he remain where he is after all.




Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #162 on: November 17, 2005, 11:55:46 PM »
Quote
If Lenin was not an Orthodox believer he ought not have an Orthodox service of burial.

Can he not simply be buried without any religious service?


I agree elfwine, it does seem somewhat incongruous.


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #163 on: November 18, 2005, 12:40:17 AM »
Quote
Though it is perhaps not the central issue at stake, a point ought to be made about the architectural importance of the Mausoleum.

It is a very fine example of Constructivist architecture, unique in its use of high quality materials, and one that should under no circumstances be destroyed.

All over Moscow the wonderful examples of Constructivism are being destroyed through deliberate neglect - Rusakov Centre, Melnikov house etc, so to destroy such an important monument as the Mausoleum would in my view be almost as great a folly as knocking down St.Basil's.  

Symbols and objects can always be reinterpreted.  Different generations will always place a different set of values on inanimate objects, be they works of art, buildings or everyday objects.


tobik you have summarized the importance of preserving historic relics extremely well.

Preservation of Mel'nik's House and fine works of art do not fall into the same category as preserving the remains of a decayed human to serve a minority for their continuing, tiring, political aggrandizement.

Artistic endeavors, whether they be architectural, literary or otherwise are Russia's assets. They cumulatively form the nation's cultural heritage and must be preserved otherwise they will be irreperably lost. To preserve such objects is Russia's responsibility.

To continue preserving Lenin can hardly be considered a cultural asset for Russia's future.
 ;D


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Azarias

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 175
    • View Profile
Re: Preserve Lenin or bury him?
« Reply #164 on: December 07, 2005, 04:36:12 AM »
Finally the IF has been laid to rest, unless you are one who doesn't accept the bones as genuine. If they buried the IF then isn't it time to also do the same with Lenin.

Keeping him around is kind of creepy.