Author Topic: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya  (Read 170719 times)

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Offline Ally Kumari

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #150 on: October 23, 2009, 06:50:01 AM »
"The next morning dawned bright and sunny. The Emperor, as usual, attended mass in the private chapel of the Winter Palace. His children were all there, save the wife of the Grand Duke Vladimir, who, being a Protestant at that time, did not attend the Greek services. It was noticed that when the Tsarevna came up to her iather-in-law to take leave of him after mass was over, he rudely thrust her aside with the words " Dites done adieu d la Princes se," and he indicated the Princess Yourievsky. The Heiress to the Throne made a profound curtsey to the Sovereign and silently withdrew, after merely bending her proud little head in the direction of Alexander II.'s morganatic wife."


Could anybody translate the French part?

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #151 on: October 23, 2009, 07:10:06 AM »
I think that is something like Say goodbye to the Princess, but I'm not sure...

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #152 on: October 23, 2009, 07:57:12 AM »
'That HIM abused his authority over Katya and had an affair with her is his failing, not hers.'

Dare I quote the old adage that it takes two to tango?

I would take the view that Alexander behaved very badly indeed in starting an affair with a very young girl of good family, who was ostensibly under his protection, and his behaviour in bringing her and her brood into the palace while his wife was dying was worse still. However, while I'm prepared to accept that we cannot really expect Ekaterina Dolgorukaya to have resisted her seduction, this affair was not a brief fling. It went on for 14 years and Ekaterina was not always 18.  Whether she really loved Alexander I'm not in a position to say, but we should not treat her as a victim - she was responsible for her own actions.

Ann

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #153 on: October 25, 2009, 01:19:57 AM »
"The next morning dawned bright and sunny. The Emperor, as usual, attended mass in the private chapel of the Winter Palace. His children were all there, save the wife of the Grand Duke Vladimir, who, being a Protestant at that time, did not attend the Greek services. It was noticed that when the Tsarevna came up to her iather-in-law to take leave of him after mass was over, he rudely thrust her aside with the words " Dites done adieu d la Princes se," and he indicated the Princess Yourievsky. The Heiress to the Throne made a profound curtsey to the Sovereign and silently withdrew, after merely bending her proud little head in the direction of Alexander II.'s morganatic wife."


Could anybody translate the French part?

"Dites adieu" means "say goodbye". Trying to keep this in context, I would translate this as "You should say goodbye to the Princess". Meaning, if she was taking her leave from the Emperor, it was rude of her to not also take her leave of Yurievskaya. Which, of course it was. Dagmar apparently thought a nod would do.

Offline Ally Kumari

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #154 on: October 25, 2009, 02:07:41 AM »
Thank you! It must have felt humiliating to Dagmar...... She didnĀ“t like Ekaterina did she?

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #155 on: October 26, 2009, 07:50:20 AM »
I don't think it was a case of dislike of Ekaterina herself, given that after Alexander II's death she behaved quite sensitively to her.   I think it was what Ekaterina represented - a former non-royal mistress (with all the Victorian horror of 'fallen' women that brought with it) being put into the place of a virtuous royal wife.  There must also have been great alarm at the thought that it was within the Tsar's power to create her Tsarina, and the more the Tsar insisted on her being acknowledged, the greater that alarm must have been.  When Alexander died and there was no question that Ekaterina had no power to push or be pushed into a higher position, Dagmar became gracious.  But as to being rude, no doubt Dagmar considered it was the Tsar who was rude in insisting on her bowing the head to an immoral woman.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #156 on: October 26, 2009, 08:01:34 AM »
Countess Kate

I agree, and things were probably made worse by Aexander marrying the immoral woman with such indecent haste.

Ann

Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #157 on: October 26, 2009, 10:23:22 AM »
Hi,

Well if the Tsar commands you to bow your head to anybody, then you do it - no questions asked...
You may not like it but you obey!!

Did Dagmar ever 'receive' Catherine?  Was she ever asked (commanded) to receive her?

Larry

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #158 on: October 26, 2009, 04:03:51 PM »
I don't believe Dagmar was obliged to receive her formally; that would have implied that she (Dagmar) was in the higher position, whereas her suspicion was that Ekaterina was being gradually moved to the superior position where she would receive Dagmar.  "Here everything is going forward slowly but systematically" she wrote to her mother in 1881, about the situation "so we cannot calculate how things will be in six months; nothing would amaze me any longer, I assure you."  In the same letter she wrote about her sister-in-law Marie that "in my opinion she can no longer visit us here [because of Alexander's remarriage]; I consider it an impossibility, and she herself says so; how disconsolate she thus must be!" 

Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #159 on: October 26, 2009, 10:29:44 PM »
Hi,

Yes, I agree with you about the positioning regarding who receives whom....  Very touchy protocol here...

They all really only needed to put up with this situation for a few months as Alexander II was assassinated 6 to 8 months after Maria Alexandrovna's death.
Even though it seems harsh to say it:  that event solved a rather sticky problem concerning 'her'...

Larry

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #160 on: October 27, 2009, 04:21:48 AM »
'They all really only needed to put up with this situation for a few months as Alexander II was assassinated 6 to 8 months after Maria Alexandrovna's death.'

True, but nobody knew that at the time, despite all the the previous assassination attempts.

Protocol is indeed a touchy subject. One might go so far as to say that Archduke Franz Ferdinand was killed by protocol - he went to Sarajevo because he was able to go there as a General, not as an Archduke, and therefore Sophia would be treated as his equal.

Ann

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #161 on: October 27, 2009, 10:51:51 AM »
Olga Alexandrovna had nothing but good things to say about her step grandmother. I tend to think then, that there was absolutely nothing personal in Dagmar's behavior toward Yurievskaya. Instead, there was a certain protocol regarding mistresses. Even if one was personally acquainted with a parent's (or father in law's) mistress, one did not publically acknowledge them out of respect for the wife and the legitimate children. Having been a part of this family for many years, Dagmar would have "sided" with the Empress and thus even with the marriage between Sasha and his mistress, would have been acustomed to not acknowledging Katya in public. She can scarcely be blamed for this and there is no reason to think she found Yurievskaya "immoral". Just competition for her MIL.

Offline Student of History

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #162 on: October 29, 2009, 08:40:21 PM »
Hello,
I have read with interest the postings on TAII and his second wife Princess Ekaterina Dolgorukaya.
I was just wondering why Tsar Alexander II's marriage to Princess Ekaterina Dolgorukova was considered morganatic when she was the daughter of Prince Michael Dolgoruky, who was of an established Ruirik dynastic family?
Many thanks in advance,
SOH

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #163 on: November 01, 2009, 01:33:15 AM »
Hello,
I have read with interest the postings on TAII and his second wife Princess Ekaterina Dolgorukaya.
I was just wondering why Tsar Alexander II's marriage to Princess Ekaterina Dolgorukova was considered morganatic when she was the daughter of Prince Michael Dolgoruky, who was of an established Ruirik dynastic family?
Many thanks in advance,
SOH

To have an equal marriage, he would have had to marry the daughter of a reigning dynasty. The Dolgorukis, while of an older lineage, were of noble, not royal rank.

Offline Student of History

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #164 on: November 01, 2009, 04:19:45 AM »
Hi Lisa,
Thank you for your response.  Following that logic, does that mean that Romanov's were by law unable to contract marriages with Russians?