Author Topic: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya  (Read 182306 times)

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Valmont

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #90 on: January 30, 2008, 04:55:53 PM »
Margarita,
I don’t want to take any sides here, but how do you call a woman who gets involved with a married man and even goes to live under the same roof his wife lives??. She was a commoner and ended up living a life she only dreamed about. Of course she was faithful to Alexander, she would have been a fool if she didn’t… Let’s just see the facts. Let’s just say her behavior was not very decent to say the least….

Arturo Vega-Llausás

Offline Belochka

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #91 on: January 30, 2008, 05:19:08 PM »
Arturo,

Dolgorukaya was not a commoner, but of minor nobility.

I have a strong objection to the definition "prostitute" that was used against this woman by one poster.

However I will concede that Alexander II's living arrangements were unusual.

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Offline Svetabel

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #92 on: January 31, 2008, 12:52:24 AM »

Alexander II was most certainly not "a rotten man" as you have so boldly asserted.

Ekaterina Dolgorukaya was faithful to Alexander all her life, the mother of his children and eventually became his wife. Her behavior can hardly described as that of a prostitute.

Your comments are most disrespectful.



I second that.


but how do you call a woman who gets involved with a married man and even goes to live under the same roof his wife lives??.


But how can we sit here and judge a woman we never knew personally?
It always amazes me than one starts jumping to conclusions as if one lived then and there...Of course the situation with Alexander and Ekaterina was not a usual one but how can we decide now WHAT would have been better for them? Those were their lives, their feelings, misgivings and fatal mistakes...I don't try to whiten the Emperor and his lover, I just want to say - it's most disrespectful to judge people whom we never knew - we only can try to understand them if we can. And , well, if we will continue labelling them then we ends with such like this : Empress Alexandra Fedorovna is a psycho, Emperor Nicholas II is a fool, and most of the Romanovs are downright scoundrels and pretty dims...Sounds shockingly and leads to a vivid discussion but it's not a seriuos talk about the Royals.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 12:54:07 AM by Svetabel »

Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #93 on: January 31, 2008, 08:05:45 AM »
No, there is a certain difference...there can be no doubt whatsoever that Alexander II loved that person, founded a second family with her, housed her in his own residences. We even know their letters...

I blame both for treating the Empress Maria Alexandrowna in such a disgusting manner...From our modern point of view it might be considered ok, perhaps even allday-like, to be married AND to have a lover and 2nd family. But did you ever think about the status of a wife born in the early 19th century - educated to be decorative and loyal to her husband. I have read her letters - she never complains although she suffered from a terrible disease which meant death in those days, although the Tsar loved a person of unequal rank and housed her in the same edifice, although he even took that person with him when travelling to Germany, to her beloved home!
I bow in front of the Empress for not only accepting her personal suffering but also the OFFICIAL scandal (we know Queen Victoria's view of the story) considering her status as Tsarina.
She had no chance to break out and she didn't want to. She loved that man who has USED her until she had produced 8 children - and when she was not young pretty and healthy anymore...what happened?

So do not tell me that I may not judge like I did and do not compare that story with "Alexandra was a psycho" nonsense!

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #94 on: January 31, 2008, 01:15:31 PM »
No, there is a certain difference...there can be no doubt whatsoever that Alexander II loved that person, founded a second family with her, housed her in his own residences. We even know their letters...

I blame both for treating the Empress Maria Alexandrowna in such a disgusting manner...From our modern point of view it might be considered ok, perhaps even allday-like, to be married AND to have a lover and 2nd family. But did you ever think about the status of a wife born in the early 19th century - educated to be decorative and loyal to her husband. I have read her letters - she never complains although she suffered from a terrible disease which meant death in those days, although the Tsar loved a person of unequal rank and housed her in the same edifice, although he even took that person with him when travelling to Germany, to her beloved home!
I bow in front of the Empress for not only accepting her personal suffering but also the OFFICIAL scandal (we know Queen Victoria's view of the story) considering her status as Tsarina.
She had no chance to break out and she didn't want to. She loved that man who has USED her until she had produced 8 children - and when she was not young pretty and healthy anymore...what happened?

So do not tell me that I may not judge like I did and do not compare that story with "Alexandra was a psycho" nonsense!

And so you think that if Empress Maria Alexandrovna suffered much and never complained then Ekaterina was a prostitute? Wow, wonderful conclusion!...Conragts.

I did not tell to you personally "don't judge" I just said that in my opinion "it's most disrespectful to judge people whom we never knew"... even if we can read their letters. Also I didn't compare Alexandra Fedorovna and this story - read carefully!

gogm

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #95 on: January 31, 2008, 08:33:55 PM »
Maintenance of a "second family" was common enough in the upper classes. You could get off with it. No paparazzi! No Fox news (problem for US Democrats only). Nelson Rockefeller and Franklin Roosevelt had serious relationships outside of marriage - more involved than whatever Mr. Clinton did. Nelson Rockefeller's became his second wife, as I recall (her nickname was "Happy).

Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #96 on: February 01, 2008, 03:35:13 AM »
It might have been common - but this does not mean that it was right, especially as the Tsar did not even try to hide this morganatic relation; he even took her to Heiligenberg - incredible.
Princess Marie zu Erbach Schönberg, his niece, wrote that "something died within me" when learning that Alexander II had done this to the Empress. It was a real offence for the Hessian family

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #97 on: February 01, 2008, 11:28:47 AM »
It seems to me the worst thing about the whole thing was he wasn't very discreet about it. Many other rulers in history had mistresses, some flaunted them, some didn't. By the 19th century, it seem that flaunting them was not the fashion, so perhaps Alexander II acted untypically for his time there. He should have kept it more private. I thought I read, but wasn't sure that in Edwardian times ( a little later than this) at least in England under Edward VII, who had more than a few mistresses, that extra marital affairs were common, but only as long as they were kept fairly discreet and private, and appearances were observed. Maybe I am thinking of someplace else. The Russian court was never known for its morality, though. This is one reason Alexandra wanted to keep away from them, although that was interpreted in the wrong way, and led to more trouble for her. So perhaps Alexander II's affair was typical.

helenazar

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #98 on: February 01, 2008, 11:47:57 AM »
Basically, A II's behavior was very cruel to his wife, which is why his older children were upset with him. He could have had his mistress, but he should have been a lot more discreet (like for example not move her into the palace while his wife was still alive, etc.). I think he felt he was doing right by Dolgorukaya and his children with her, but at the same time he completely disregarded the feelings of the Empress, who was already very sick at the time. It was selfish on his part, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 11:51:38 AM by Helen_A »

Maria_Pavlovna

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2008, 04:20:59 PM »
An undeserving, disgusting link between a rotten man and a prostitute...


Warning: bad Language!

I don't find Katia a prostitute (in someways yes, then Alex II is a Male slut too!) Thomas Hesse- A little harsh but I agree with you about the mean treatment on poor Maria!

 In this words about Katia-  a selfish, naive, dumb bitch.

Katia practically (by accident of course!) killed her second son Boris, runing to the winter palace with a maid and IN Labor! So the Imperial Bastard would be born in a palace- very Stupid of her and selfish! That possible a reason why poor Boris died as a baby!

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #100 on: March 25, 2008, 06:36:57 PM »
An undeserving, disgusting link between a rotten man and a prostitute...


Warning: bad Language!

I don't find Katia a prostitute (in someways yes, then Alex II is a Male slut too!) Thomas Hesse- A little harsh but I agree with you about the mean treatment on poor Maria!

 In this words about Katia-  a selfish, naive, dumb bitch.

Katia practically (by accident of course!) killed her second son Boris, runing to the winter palace with a maid and IN Labor! So the Imperial Bastard would be born in a palace- very Stupid of her and selfish! That possible a reason why poor Boris died as a baby!

And yet, we don't really know how Boris died. We don't know alot of things about the marriage of Alexander II and his first wife. We do know that the death of Nixa, their eldest son, caused a cataclysm in that marriage, though. (And this type of thing happens to non royals who lose children, too.). The wife became ill and basically withdrew from life. The husband continued chasing a much younger woman.

So, for those who want to judge these people - and many do - please don't overlook the fact that all were dealing with a great loss of one kind or another.

Nadya_Arapov

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #101 on: March 26, 2008, 01:16:55 AM »
An undeserving, disgusting link between a rotten man and a prostitute...

In this words about Katia-  a selfish, naive, dumb bitch. Katia practically (by accident of course!) killed her second son Boris, running to the winter palace with a maid and IN Labor! So the Imperial Bastard would be born in a palace- very Stupid of her and selfish! That possible a reason why poor Boris died as a baby!

Wow! At least no one on the board can be accused of being dispassionate.

Lisa makes an excellent point - Alexander II had just lost his favorite son and heir. His wife retreated from the world leaving him emotionally isolated. From what I've read Maria Alexandrovna was quite a depressing figure, very morbid, in her later years. I can understand her reasons, I’m not trying to condemn MA, but I can also see his side of things. Lonely, grief-stricken, instead of withdrawing Alexander went searching for whatever happiness he could still find in life. Apparently, he found happiness with Ekaterina.

Do I find his behavior admirable? No, I don't. Especially, the way he handled MA's death. His behavior at that point was disgraceful. It may be explained in part, however, by the well-founded fear he had of Ekaterina and their children being physically harmed. He felt that they would be safer inside the palace.

To refer to Ekaterina as a prostitute and a b**** (who knew such language was allowed on this site!) is a bit harsh. She seems to have genuinely loved Alexander and remained faithful to him even after his death. Their relationship wasn’t something simply based on a desire for wealth or power. I agree that she was naïve, but I hesitate to label her a b****.

Regarding the child’s death, is there a credible source for this claim that she caused Boris’ death? I understand that it was in a book, but what source did the author cite? I just wonder if this claim was true or malicious gossip. Lord knows there was more than enough gossip to go around in St. Petersburg.

Whatever sins Alexander II committed he certainly paid for them in spades with his death. I don't applaud adultery, but I find it difficult to begrudge the man whatever bit of happiness he was able to find before meeting his gruesome end. To dismiss Alexander II as simply as a “rotten man” is overly simplistic. His affair with Ekaterina was only one part of his life. There were many more facets to his character, some of them quite admirable (especially during his youth).


Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #102 on: March 27, 2008, 01:28:38 PM »
An undeserving, disgusting link between a rotten man and a prostitute...

In this words about Katia-  a selfish, naive, dumb bitch. Katia practically (by accident of course!) killed her second son Boris, running to the winter palace with a maid and IN Labor! So the Imperial Bastard would be born in a palace- very Stupid of her and selfish! That possible a reason why poor Boris died as a baby!

Wow! At least no one on the board can be accused of being dispassionate.

Lisa makes an excellent point - Alexander II had just lost his favorite son and heir. His wife retreated from the world leaving him emotionally isolated. From what I've read Maria Alexandrovna was quite a depressing figure, very morbid, in her later years. I can understand her reasons, I’m not trying to condemn MA, but I can also see his side of things. Lonely, grief-stricken, instead of withdrawing Alexander went searching for whatever happiness he could still find in life. Apparently, he found happiness with Ekaterina.

Do I find his behavior admirable? No, I don't. Especially, the way he handled MA's death. His behavior at that point was disgraceful. It may be explained in part, however, by the well-founded fear he had of Ekaterina and their children being physically harmed. He felt that they would be safer inside the palace.

To refer to Ekaterina as a prostitute and a b**** (who knew such language was allowed on this site!) is a bit harsh. She seems to have genuinely loved Alexander and remained faithful to him even after his death. Their relationship wasn’t something simply based on a desire for wealth or power. I agree that she was naïve, but I hesitate to label her a b****.

Regarding the child’s death, is there a credible source for this claim that she caused Boris’ death? I understand that it was in a book, but what source did the author cite? I just wonder if this claim was true or malicious gossip. Lord knows there was more than enough gossip to go around in St. Petersburg.

Whatever sins Alexander II committed he certainly paid for them in spades with his death. I don't applaud adultery, but I find it difficult to begrudge the man whatever bit of happiness he was able to find before meeting his gruesome end. To dismiss Alexander II as simply as a “rotten man” is overly simplistic. His affair with Ekaterina was only one part of his life. There were many more facets to his character, some of them quite admirable (especially during his youth).



Thank you, Nadya. No, I am not a fan of adultery, either. I do profess annoyance, though, with the notion that women must either be plaster saints devoid of passion or morally bankrupt prostitutes. Real women fortunately fall in between these two ridiculous extremes.

Princess Dolgoruky was one such woman. She fell in love with a married man who was supposed to be her protector, which placed them both on a morally slippery slope down which they tumbled, as it were. I truly feel sorry for everyone involved - the poor wife, the Tsar, his mistress, and the Tsar's adult offspring and their families - all suffered through this situation.

As for Alexander II, for certain he was an adulterer, but that alone does not make him a "rotten man".

Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #103 on: March 29, 2008, 06:18:27 AM »

He was no commoner, no privatier, he was the head and (he should have been) paragon of the largest nation of the day...he had duties; Royals never belong themselves...

Considering that he lived in the 19th century, in an modern age....sorry - there is just one word: rotten

Offline Belochka

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #104 on: March 29, 2008, 07:31:44 AM »

He was no commoner, no privatier, he was the head and (he should have been) paragon of the largest nation of the day...he had duties; Royals never belong themselves...

Considering that he lived in the 19th century, in an modern age....sorry - there is just one word: rotten

Why not learn to appreciate what Alexander II attempted to accomplish for Imperial Russia instead of imposing your condemnation over the choices the Emperor made in his personal life?


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