Author Topic: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya  (Read 175766 times)

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #120 on: May 13, 2008, 12:45:10 AM »
Where did you read that the Empress withdrew from life? And what do you mean with that common phrase? Her letters speak another language... And I presume that you did not read a single one of those...

If you are convinced that she was a far livelier, healthy, energetic person than other posts have suggested, fine. Perhaps Maria Alexandrovna was. However, every single account I've ever read described her as an invalid for many years before her death. MA's health was never robust. Her many pregnancies, combined with the Russian climate, absolutely ravaged her heath. Rather like another future Hessian-born Empress, Alexandra Feodorovna. MA may not have withdrawn from life intellectually, but physically she was forced to withdraw from many aspects of court life. She also withdrew from life at court in a more literal sense by spending considerable time abroad during the latter part of her life. So I don't see how you can accuse Lisa of being ill-informed on that score. You have a right to your opinion, Thomas, I have a right to mine, and Lisa has a right to her's. You don't have to be insulting, though. Why not just quote from some of MA's letters, instead, to prove your point about MA.

BUT, was Alexander nice to her after she became very ill, and death of two children? No!  He treated Marie like if she was already dead when Nicholas, their son and Heir died, that's unfair!

What Alexander II did, taking on his young ward as a mistress, abandoning MA, was certainly indecent. I’m sure everyone posting would agree on that point. It was a sad, shameful, pathetic chapter in Alexander II's life. I just don't feel that it nullifies any and all achievements made during the course of his life.

Exactly, and thank you for your defense. I could not have said it better myself.

Offline Nadya_Arapov

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #121 on: May 13, 2008, 01:45:47 AM »
No thanks are needed. What you wrote about MA was correct and I felt someone should point that out.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #122 on: May 13, 2008, 08:40:33 AM »
Wasn't Dolgorukhaya only about 16 or 17 when the affair with AII started? He would go to prison for that today... You can't exactly hold the girl responsible for this, but you can certainly hold him responsible. He was the one who was married, he was the one who put his sick wife through mental anguish when he moved his mistress and their children into the palace, and all the while he was a mature adult. When the affair started, Dolgorukaya was just a teenager who was undoubtedly flattered by the attention from an older man, and a powerful one at that. This happens so often. Of course she imagined herself to be in love with him, and maybe she was, but as someone else said eariler he took advantage of her youth and inexperience and of his position. I am sure he gave her the usual song and dance that married men give - about his wife "not understanding" him, etc. To refer to her as a "prostitute" is ridiculous.

Offline Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #123 on: May 13, 2008, 12:17:11 PM »
If you are convinced that she was a far livelier, healthy, energetic person than other posts have suggested, fine. Perhaps Maria Alexandrovna was. However, every single account I've ever read described her as an invalid for many years before her death. MA's health was never robust. Her many pregnancies, combined with the Russian climate, absolutely ravaged her heath. Rather like another future Hessian-born Empress, Alexandra Feodorovna. MA may not have withdrawn from life intellectually, but physically she was forced to withdraw from many aspects of court life. She also withdrew from life at court in a more literal sense by spending considerable time abroad during the latter part of her life. So I don't see how you can accuse Lisa of being ill-informed on that score. You have a right to your opinion, Thomas, I have a right to mine, and Lisa has a right to her's. You don't have to be insulting, though. Why not just quote from some of MA's letters, instead, to prove your point about MA.

Your comment, dear Nadya, reminds me very much of the common prejudices people use to put on several historical persons. Wonderful example: Grand Duke Sergej Alexandrovitch. Many ignore positive comments about his personality - such as the one of his brother in law, Ernst Ludwig of Hessen.

If Lisa confesses not to have read the Empress's own comments - and there are incredibly many left (!) - may I not express my opinion that it I think it wrong to judge Maria Alexandrovna in such a unqualified manner?!
Nobody doubts that she suffered from TB most time of her life. But you cannot state that she has "withdrawn" first and her husband took a mistress AFTERWARDS. The vice versa might be the case.
I will not quote from those letters as I am not the owner and do not have the right to do so.

Meine Kaiserin

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #124 on: May 13, 2008, 01:43:24 PM »
If you are convinced that she was a far livelier, healthy, energetic person than other posts have suggested, fine. Perhaps Maria Alexandrovna was. However, every single account I've ever read described her as an invalid for many years before her death. MA's health was never robust. Her many pregnancies, combined with the Russian climate, absolutely ravaged her heath. Rather like another future Hessian-born Empress, Alexandra Feodorovna. MA may not have withdrawn from life intellectually, but physically she was forced to withdraw from many aspects of court life. She also withdrew from life at court in a more literal sense by spending considerable time abroad during the latter part of her life. So I don't see how you can accuse Lisa of being ill-informed on that score. You have a right to your opinion, Thomas, I have a right to mine, and Lisa has a right to her's. You don't have to be insulting, though. Why not just quote from some of MA's letters, instead, to prove your point about MA.

Your comment, dear Nadya, reminds me very much of the common prejudices people use to put on several historical persons. Wonderful example: Grand Duke Sergej Alexandrovitch. Many ignore positive comments about his personality - such as the one of his brother in law, Ernst Ludwig of Hessen.

If Lisa confesses not to have read the Empress's own comments - and there are incredibly many left (!) - may I not express my opinion that it I think it wrong to judge Maria Alexandrovna in such a unqualified manner?!
Nobody doubts that she suffered from TB most time of her life. But you cannot state that she has "withdrawn" first and her husband took a mistress AFTERWARDS. The vice versa might be the case.
I will not quote from those letters as I am not the owner and do not have the right to do so.


Are you familiar with the concept that intelligent people can disagree without being disagreeable? Do you know what sarcasm is? I am asking you these questions because you are giving others the impression that you don't understand sarcasm and that you have to be nasty and call historical figures names in order to communicate your disapproval of their conduct and your disagreement with other posters.

I am going to repeat for the third and last time: I did not say I hadn't read Maria Alexandrovna's letters, I said I was being sarcastic, meaning, I did not mean what I was saying. I did this because of the very demeaning way you spoke to me - and I thought humor might be a better way to communicate. Since attempts at humor are completely lost on you, I will cease the light approach. You need to be respectful (and not disagreeable) when disagreeing with others. If you continue to ignore my sarcasm, I will refer this to the FA for action.

I have certainly not judged MA in "an unqualified manner" but because of your characterization of the ward Dolgorukaya as a "prostitute" my assumption is that you are insulting me in this manner because you have a low opinion of women in general which clouds your judgement. MA was physically unable to do the job of Russian empress - as others have pointed out, as was Alexandra F - and this is the "withdrawal from the world". I also clearly point out that Alexander II's infidelity predated Nixa's death. In no way was MA responsible ever for her husband's betrayal. And, no one has mixed up the causality of his actions except you.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 07:36:04 PM by LisaDavidson »

Offline Mandie, the Gothic Empress

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #125 on: May 13, 2008, 04:21:45 PM »
if all you are stating is your opinion and if you lack compassion because of the way he treated his wife, it is my hope that you are never in need of compassion from others. If you are simply agreeing that Alexander was "rotten" and Katya a "prostitute", then I have the same opinion of your opinion as I do TH's.

Lisa D,

Thats were I don't agree with TH Alexander was "rotten" and Katya a "prostitute". I agree he can say what ever he whats, because it HIS opinion. opinions aren't fact.
True I don't have  much compassion for Alexander, because MY FATHER treated my mother rotten in similar ways! however no siblings died and my mother's heath is good.  So please, don't dare to say of my opinions for someone whom reminds me of the awful ways of my father.  but I  still, don't like nether and nothing would change my opinion (not a fact), stay all you want about Alexander and Catherine, but never tell me i have no compassion!
Yes, poor Marie had no ability to do her duties as Empress, not her fault, nor anyone else's.

StevenL

Of course, I know marriage life isn't heaven at times and were no angels, but they way he treated Marie, and how Catherine enter the picture,  it  just sickens me. I don't think Catherine is a prostitute and a bad person, I just don't like her.

Offline Mandie, the Gothic Empress

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #126 on: May 13, 2008, 04:30:22 PM »

Warning: bad Language!

I don't find Katia a prostitute (in someways yes, then Alex II is a Male slut too!) Thomas Hesse- A little harsh but I agree with you about the mean treatment on poor Maria!

 In this words about Katia-  a selfish, naive, dumb b****h.


Ah, yes, my opinion, in the meaning of "someways" because i don't believe in Adultery, thats what i should of posted, since everybody don't think the same way, by opinions & other things. so i never really called her one!

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #127 on: May 13, 2008, 04:41:50 PM »
if all you are stating is your opinion and if you lack compassion because of the way he treated his wife, it is my hope that you are never in need of compassion from others. If you are simply agreeing that Alexander was "rotten" and Katya a "prostitute", then I have the same opinion of your opinion as I do TH's.

Lisa D,

Thats were I don't agree with TH Alexander was "rotten" and Katya a "prostitute". I agree he can say what ever he whats, because it HIS opinion. opinions aren't fact.
True I don't have  much compassion for Alexander, because MY FATHER treated my mother rotten in similar ways! however no siblings died and my mother's heath is good.  So please, don't dare to say of my opinions for someone whom reminds me of the awful ways of my father.  but I  still, don't like nether and nothing would change my opinion (not a fact), stay all you want about Alexander and Catherine, but never tell me i have no compassion!
Yes, poor Marie had no ability to do her duties as Empress, not her fault, nor anyone else's.

StevenL

Of course, I know marriage life isn't heaven at times and were no angels, but they way he treated Marie, and how Catherine enter the picture,  it  just sickens me. I don't think Catherine is a prostitute and a bad person, I just don't like her.


I am so sorry that your father treated your mother badly. That's very sad. And, thank you for clarifying that you don't apply those labels to Alexander II and Princess Dolgorouky. I think sometimes when we've seen this kind of bad behavior up close, it's really tough to separate our personal feelings from the mix.

Offline Nadya_Arapov

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #128 on: May 14, 2008, 09:05:03 PM »
Wasn't Dolgorukhaya only about 16 or 17 when the affair with AII started? He would go to prison for that today... Y

Ekaterina was born in 1847. They met shortly before her 17th birthday in late 1864. However, they only became intimate in the summer of 1866. That means that Ekaterina was 18 (just shy of her 19th birthday) at the time. Having an affair with an 18-year-old is sleazy, but it’s not illegal. He wouldn’t go to jail if it happened today.

Your comment, dear Nadya, reminds me very much of the common prejudices people use to put on several historical persons. Wonderful example: Grand Duke Sergej Alexandrovitch. Many ignore positive comments about his personality - such as the one of his brother in law, Ernst Ludwig of Hessen...
Nobody doubts that she suffered from TB most time of her life. But you cannot state that she has "withdrawn" first and her husband took a mistress AFTERWARDS. The vice versa might be the case.
I will not quote from those letters as I am not the owner and do not have the right to do so.

Thomas if you are convinced that Lisa and I are woefully misinformed with regard to MA then by all means enlighten us. I’m not being sarcastic, either, I m completely in earnest.

You actually could quote from MA’s letters according to fair use. It would be one thing to reproduce the whole book online. That would certainly be a violation of copyright. Excessive quoting would be, too. Selective quoting wouldn’t be. However, if you are unfamiliar with the fair use law, and would rather not quote verbatim, why not paraphrase? You could tell us what sort of things she discussed in the letters. What activities she was engaging in. You could explain why you believe, contrary to the claims of the authors whose works I’ve read, that MA was a more active figure after 1860. I for one would be extremely interested in any additional information you could provide about the life of MA. I mean this sincerely.

I know she was initially quite active and tried to help her husband with his liberal reforms. It is my understanding, however, that by the early 1860s (just prior to his meeting Katya) she was often too ill to be physically active in any real sense, her failing health curtailed her activities, and she wasn’t as involved in Alexander’s life as she had once been. I also have read that, much like Alexandra Feodorovna (only minus a Rasputin-like figure thankfully), she became deeply immersed in religion and mysticism in her final years. That death became a preoccupation for her because of her TB and Nixa’s death. If I’m mistaken I would certainly welcome any correction on this point and an explanation of why I am mistaken. For example, are there any books you would recommend that I read to gain a new perspective on MA if my perception of her is indeed flawed?

I have regretted my earlier posts in this thread, because I wasn’t terribly clear. I never meant to suggest that he was completely faithful and dutiful prior to his affair with Katya. He had casual affairs (for lack of a better term) before Nixa’s death. I’m well aware of that. I’m also aware of the fact that his attraction to Katya predated Nixa’s death (he was instantly attracted to her when they met in 1864). However, Katya was his first truly all-consuming affair. It is my understanding that for two years their relationship was, technically, a platonic one. That they had only become lovers in the summer of 1866 – after the death of Nixa – while he was still in the grips of the depression caused by his son’s untimely death.

Alexander and MA had begun drifting apart several years before Nixa’s death. He suffered from deep depressions off and on throughout his life, and he found MA’s illness difficult to bear. She had withdrawn from his life in a literal physical sense, not only as a lover but also as a companion, bit-by-bit over the years. It was not done by her choice, but it did happen, and it had begun to happen before he finally threw her over for Katya. As for Nixa’s death, it wasn’t the sole cause of his affair with Katya, but IMHO his death effectively severed the last remaining bond that Alexander and MA possessed – their devotion to their eldest son – and led him to begin what was his most serious and flagrant affair.

Would he have had an affair with Katya prior to Nixa’s death? Yes, he would have had she agreed to become his mistress. However, I have doubts about whether the affair would have lasted any longer than the others had the Empress not been ill and had Nixa been alive. I tend to believe that had he been thinking clearly, had he been less depressed, his passion for Ekaterina would have run its course and burned out just as his passion for every other woman had. I don't think he would have been as callous to MA if Nixa had lived. As it was, Nixa's death seemed to spur him on, increasing his desire to escape his former life. I’m willing to admit that this is only my opinion, and I could be mistaken.

Was any of that MA’s fault? No. Of course, she wasn’t to blame for being ill, or for his depression, or for his desire to have a youthful and healthy companion. He chose to be unfaithful and his callous behavior doesn’t reflect well on him at all. When considering his life as a whole, however, his political legacy, I choose to try and put his shoddy behavior as a husband into some kind of perspective. It was only one part of his life.

Mandie, I too had a father who committed adultery. So, obviously, I don't think well of adultery or those who commit it. However, as I wrote to Thomas above, I tend to try and judge historical figures by their public legacy and not according to their private indiscretions. I can understand why you would feel differently, though, and certainly don't think you lack compassion.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 09:07:44 PM by Nadya_Arapov »

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #129 on: May 15, 2008, 07:54:22 AM »
When considering his life as a whole, however, his political legacy, I choose to try and put his shoddy behavior as a husband into some kind of perspective. It was only one part of his life.

He was a good Tsar but a bad husband and father, at least toward the end of his life. Sort of the opposite of his grandson Nicholas II. But one thing has nothing to do with the other. Einstein was a terrible family man but still an incredible man. Same with Ben Franklin. Most people are either one or the other (or neither) but very few can be both...

Offline stacey simmons

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #130 on: June 02, 2008, 09:06:29 PM »
 :-X  being czar meant in russia you were god on earth so having a mistress and kids in the same house as your wife is no big deal.putin just left his wife of 20 years for a woman half his age. 

Offline ashanti01

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #131 on: July 16, 2008, 12:54:27 AM »


Offline rusmila

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #132 on: November 29, 2008, 04:07:07 AM »
I cant found diary of Ekaterina Jurevskaja or Alexander the Second?If you know please send me web adress. 

Offline Thomas_Hesse

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #133 on: November 30, 2008, 05:39:06 AM »
I don't think that they're worth reading - that rotten relation comes clear enough through some of their surviving letters. There was a link a while ago
Meine Kaiserin

Offline amelia

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Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
« Reply #134 on: November 30, 2008, 07:34:30 AM »
There is a book in French with their letters THE DEMON BLUE DU TSAR, and I agree, it was a very strange relationship. Through her letters you can see how demanding she was and how little love she had for the Tsar.

Amelia