Empress Marie's 1928 funeral & crypt in Denmark

[Belochka]

Thanks Luke for posting this interesting exerpt.

Of course Rear Admiral Graf was Kirill's private secretary, so it is hardly surprising that this exerpt is styled to accord with his belief that Kirill was the "Emperor" in waiting.

Featuring this particular exerpt to publicize the availability of this memoir is interesting in itself.

[Hellfire]

I am a bit confused in this excerpt it said that the doweger empress was in accordance with Kirill's claim i know that this excerpt will be biased but what was the empress's true feeling towards Kirill's claim?  what was the immediate family's feelings toward his claim?  example Xenia and Olga or any other person.  

Was Kirill's claim legitimate and the claim of his decendants?  who is the true head of the house today?  i understand that Marie Vladimirovna and her son claim this titile but i also read that they aren't exactly looked upon as the true heads not many of the family accept their claim and they are usually trying to hold on to some thing that isn't theirs?  i understand that they are not invited to any social events that are of importance.  they usually appear at low key events that doesn't even warrant the mention is this true?

are there any pictures of the funeral or of the attendants of the funeral; the different royal houses present?  pictures of the daughters and their family? maybe a last picture of the Russian royal family together because i undertsnad that this was the last reunion they had a complete reunion of eveyone.

[Eurohistory]

Very interesting indeed and I have already contacted these people to see if Eurohistory can sell copies of the book.

Arturo Beéche

[Arleen_Ristau]

GD Kirill is probably my least favorite Romanov, and I don't agree that he and his line are the successors.  BUT this book seems wonderful for the little details that I am so interested in of the rest of the fmily.  How come no one seems to have known about it until now??  Luke, thank you very much for posting the excerpts. ( I was wanting to find out if Marie Pavlovna,Jr. met up with her son Lennert at the funeral, but this does not mention it. Just that she and Dimitri came together.
Arleen

[Belochka]

It should be realized that the link which Luke kindly provided comes from the website of the pretender to a non existent Russian throne.

[Dominic_Albanese]

I think that the funeral protocol of the Maria Fyodorovna should be comletely the same as for the Mariya Alexandrovna, wife of the Alexandra II, because she was Empresse when she died.

As for Nikolay, it was some difficulties with protocol, because he was not Emperor when he died.

Hikaru - has there been any recent news related to the reburial or Marie?  Will it be a grand occasion?  It seemed like a great opportunity to bring many tourist groups (and dollars) to St. Petesburg.  Also, I think I read somewhere that there was some renovation/restoration work going on at the St. Peter & St. Paul Cathedral.  Are they doing anything to stop the water from flooding the crypts?  This has always creeped me out!!

thanks, as always for y our information.

best,
dca

[Alexander_II]

Nicholas II funeral was purposely low key because it had in the end become controversial.  The Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox church at the last moment questioned the identity of the remains saying the area where the bones were found was often used for mass executions during the civil war and thereafter issued a statement declaring the remains to still be in some dispute and as such, point blankly refused to officate at the service.  After much dialogue between the church and state, it was agreed to proceed with the state funeral however, the priests appointed to perform the service were given firm instructions from Alexis II (the Patriarch) that they were not allowed to mention the individual names of the Imperial family being interred lest the identity of the remains not be that of the last Emperor and his family.  The Patriarch's stance in turn angered the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad which had canonised the Imperial family as royal martyrs in 1981.  As a consequence, there were some branches of the Romanov family who refused to attend the funeral saying the burial was a sham.

The Dowager Empress had expressed the wish that her remains be eventually returned to Russia and interred next to that of her husband, Alexander III, at a time in the future when it was permissible for this to be done.  

[AlexP]

As she has already recieved a full religous/state funeral with rites, the re-internment should be rather a blessing ceremony. This is my take on things.  Saying that, RO   "little blessings" can be quite inspiring as well,.

Dear Robert,

Under the "ystav" of the Russian Orthodox Church, when a body is disinterred for reburial, an "otpivayanii" and a "pogrebenyia" (Slavonic words here) are not served.  On the other hand, a full "panikhida" is served (memorial service for the dead) and the "panikhida" for an Empress Dowager, or an Empress or deposed monarch is no different than that of an ordinary citizen but protocol dictates in this case, since there is NO question as to the body, that the highest prelate in the "eparxia" officiate the service.  Since she is to be reinterred in St. Petersburg, that would mean that the Metropolitan of St. Petersburg and Ladoga would officiate.  In his position as Supreme head of the Russian Orthodox Church, the Patriarch himself may also choose to officiate.  This is a strong possibility since he himsefl was previously Metrolitan of St. Petersburg.

What is different are the requirements for the service.  In an ordinary capacity, a "panikhida" for a layman might only be served by a parish priest.  In the case of the reinterment of the Dowager Empress, the church canons prescribe that the panihikda must be served by the highest ranking prelate of the diocese in which interment will take place (the Metropolitan) assisted by at least SEVEN other Archbishops and Bishops, assisted by an equal number of SEVEN of the lesser clergy.

The Russian Orthodox panihikda is a very, very beautiful and moving service.  Protocol also dictates that the service must be sung by a choir of at least 12 voices (four tenor, four bass, four soprano, four alto) in the case of a Dowager Empress, although it is my understanding that in this case the Patriarch will "lend" the choir of the Cathedral of Christ The Saviour in Moscow (all of them Moscow Opera quality voice).  The service will begin with an invocation of the blessing of Almighty God and the Mercies of Heavy upon the departed by the Metropolitan himself, proceed to a reading of the 50st Psalm ("Have Mercy On Me O Lord, According to the Multitude") (please note that Psalm numbers differ between the Russian Church and the Western Churches) by the Lesser Clergy, it will continue with a long series of "ektenyenia" (petitions) for the soul of the departed by one each of the lesser clergy at a time, then a reading of the 91st Psalm in its entirety ("He That Dwells Under the Shadow of the Almighty"), more "ektenyenia", then the chanting of the entire 118 Psalm ("Blessed Art Thou O Lord, Teach Me Thy Statutes") in its entirety, the funeral dirge (which was sung in Dr. Zhivago - "With The Saints Give Rest", at which time the attendees kneel, followed by the final "ektenyenia" and then the "Memory Eternal", at which point all will kneel again.  The choir will then sing "Her Soul Has Been Gathered Unto the Righteous", the coffin will be borne by the pallbears, or the "prezhluniki" and it will be carried around the church three times with a a deacon carrying a cross, two lanterns carried by the "laterniki", followed by a deacon who will cense the assistance, followed by the Metropolitan, the Assisting Bishops, the coffin and the clery.  The laity do not take part in the procession, all of this while the choir sings "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Have Mercy Upon Us".   This singing of the Trisagion will continue will continue while the Dowager Empress is being reburied.  At the conclusion of this Office, the Metropolitan will offer the cross to bless those members of the Imperial Family that are in attendance and they will be blessed and then they will kiss the cross of the Metropolitan.

At this point, the Choir will then sing the opening stanza of the Canon of St. Andrew of Crete (called the "Kanon pokayanii") "A Helper and a Redeemer" from the Hymns of the First Week in Lent or the Opening Stanza from Pascha ("Let God Arise").  That will be at the discretion of the family and the Metropolitan.  The service will then be closed.

The Metropolitan will retire first and the Choir will sing "Many Years and Long Life to the Patriarch and the Metropolitan" and the close family members will retire.  At this point, at the request of the family, God Save The Tzar will be sung.

That is how a pankihida for the Dowager Empress will be conducted.  All told, the service should last at least 1.45 minutes.

There is one interesting point :  whom will the Patriarch and the Russian Government designate to represent the House of Romanov? We all know that the Patriarch favors the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna.  That will be the BIG, BIG Question.

Regards from Shanghai,



A.A.

[Dominic_Albanese]

Very interesting indeed and I have already contacted these people to see if Eurohistory can sell copies of the book.

Arturo Beéche

Art - did you ever get an answer as to whether you were going to be able to sell this book?

dca

[Macedonsky]

There is one interesting point :  whom will the Patriarch and the Russian Government designate to represent the House of Romanov? We all know that the Patriarch favors the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna.  That will be the BIG, BIG Question.

There is no question because the ceremony is organized by the state commission headed by Mr Artsishevsky, representative of the Romanoff Family Assn in Russia.

[AlexP]

There is no question because the ceremony is organized by the state commission headed by Mr Artsishevsky, representative of the Romanoff Family Assn in Russia.

Dear Macedonsky:

To which Romanov Family Association are you referring?

And who designated him representative?  That in itself will give an idea.

And since you mention the State Commission you are surely aware of the role of the Patriarch and the Department of External Affairs of the Russian Orthodox Church and the role of Metropolitan Kyrill in all of this.  And you are surely aware that the burial of the "Romanov" family almost did not happen because the Church did not concur.  It is not the Romanov Family Association that the Patriarch receives on a regular basis; as you are in Moscow, you are surely aware of that.  It is the Grand Duchess  and Her Mother, and on the occasion, her son.  And the publicity service of the Patriarch always assures that these visits are televised on the news, made available to the newspapers, etc., etc.

I look forward to your thoughts here.

With all of the best from Shanghai,


A.A.

[Lucien]

It is still a family in turmoil,as we have witnessed on occasions.I wonder,could they at least agree on who's present at the reburial of HIM without making a nuisance of themselves.Would the Metropolitan be the decisive entity in this?

[AlexP]

It is still a family in turmoil,as we have witnessed on occasions.I wonder,could they at least agree on who's present at the reburial of HIM without making a nuisance of themselves.Would the Metropolitan be the decisive entity in this?

Cher Lucien,

Je vous remercie bien.  That is exactly what my point was.  Macedonsky makes references to a representative of the House of Romanov Family Association, and there are several family associations, and not all are under one roof by any means.  So while this Representative may be the eyes and ears of someone (probably in my opinion the Swiss branch), it is not the eyes and ears of all the branches.  Remember -- the Patriarch did not attend the internment of the Imperial Family (if indeed those bones were of the Imperial Family) and neither did The Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna.  What Makedonsky may or may not understand, or may or may not realize, is that the reinternment will be a religious reinternment in hallowed church ground conducted by the Church.  He must know the Patriarch very well to just think that everyone will roll over with  a decision by one Swiss representative...

Yours points are excellent.

Welcome to the Board, BTW.  I look forward to reading many, many more of your posts.

With all of the best from Shanghai,


A.A.

[Lucien]

Dear Alex,

Thank you for your kind words of welcome.

I'm impressed by the way you explain as to how a Russian Orthodox panihikda should be conducted.

Although not just an inspiring little blessing,beautifull as they can be,and being aware that HIM already
had a service with all the rites of a full religious/state funeral,remains the fact that that service took place
in Danmark,not on Holy Russian Soil,so wouldnt there be  "more adjustments" to the service at St.Peter and Paul?

Btw,in my previous post I mentioned the Metropolitan but I mean the Patriarch,ofcourse.He seems to be
a person with influence if not power,I only question his good use of it,and to whom's better interest?

I look forward to your thoughts in writing,
regards,Lucien.

[Mgmstl]

There is a link:

http://www.jp.dk/indland/artikel:aid=2485966/

which contains a photo of her crypt along with an article (in Danish unfortunately). Also, information that her crypt will be available for viewing from now until the end of Sept along with a small exhibition of funeral photos and icons. Anyone live near Copenhagen who can visit and post photos?  

There is a photo of her casket in the Marie Feodorvna thread that I posted.