Re: Cousin Toria

[Marlene]

"Hopefully with this new exhibit of Maud's clothes at the V&A, more people will become interested in her life, and maybe even a decent biography will come out of it! (Let's cross our fingers!)[/quote]

The first two volumes of a three volumed series about Haakon and Maud have been published in Norway.  The author has had access to the archives, etc.  It is unlikely that these books will be translated into English.

[Grace]

I agree with what Alicky has said about the Wales girls.  Because they were obviously not encouraged to have a prominent public role as princesses, we don't really have that much to go on, apart from private opinions, letters etc.

Apparently, they were quite fun loving when young, at least.  

We are all, to some extent, products of our environment and I think that was the case here.

[bluetoria]

Perhaps, as you say, they were the 'products of their environment' & I am not condemning them for that, but to be in such a position & seem to have so little sparkle...so little life. Their clothes, IMO, wouldn't change it...it has nothing to do with their appearance..it is to do with their reaction to what was going on around them that I despair of them! They seem to be forever children. It would be interesting to know, for example, more about Toria's involvement with the alleged spy in WWI...some maid in her household? Or to know what they really thought about anything.

By the way, Alicky, I am sure you cannot be viewed as dull!! You have your life & your baby & your interests too!! Did THEY have any interests in anything? (Excluding Maud! )  

[Alicky1872]

Perhaps, as you say, they were the 'products of their environment' & I am not condemning them for that, but to be in such a position & seem to have so little sparkle...so little life. Their clothes, IMO, wouldn't change it...it has nothing to do with their appearance..it is to do with their reaction to what was going on around them that I despair of them! They seem to be forever children. It would be interesting to know, for example, more about Toria's involvement with the alleged spy in WWI...some maid in her household? Or to know what they really thought about anything.

By the way, Alicky, I am sure you cannot be viewed as dull!! You have your life & your baby & your interests too!! Did THEY have any interests in anything? (Excluding Maud! )  

Oh, thank you Bluetoria!  

You mentioned them forever being children...it brings to mind Louise's 19th birthday party with games for children! My goodness! Louise does seem to be an oddball. I read that after she married, she became very reclusive and very rarely saw her own family. (Was this her way of escaping Motherdear's clutch?) Seems the only things that interested her were salmon fishing and playing the piano.

Toria...if only she had had her chance to marry. She would have been a very different person. I'd be bitter too, living the life she had. Didn't David call her a bit%* of the first order?   It seems she had a good relationship with her nephew George Kent. It would be interesting to see what he had to say about her. I bet we would see a totally different side to her. Besides, she wasn't that bad. She did have a humorous side, didn't she used to walk past the school windows, making faces at the children, then duck out of sight before the teacher could see what the children were laughing at?  

[bluetoria]

She did have a humorous side, didn't she used to walk past the school windows, making faces at the children, then duck out of sight before the teacher could see what the children were laughing at?  

When she was an adult!! Oh if that's true she has completely redeemed herself & gone up 100% in my estimation! That's so funny!!
I think the story of her going to the Nursing Home & depressing all the old folks by saying, "You might think you're happy here, but you're not really, you poor things!" is also quite funny (though not for them!)
But the school story...I think I'd like to do that!  

[QueenEna1887]

I' am much more interested in Toria's private life. I did read about her having affairs with numerous men who were they? Did the Queen know about these men?

[Duchess_of_Fenwick]

Princess Victoria having affairs with numerous men??!!  Reallly!!  I have never read anything to guggest she was anything but a "servant"  and companion to her mother.  In the book "Edward V11's CHildren" by...the name escapes me, the only thing I remember was her ill fated romance to Lord Roseberry.  Not sure it was exactly a romance...just another man she was denied a future with.  Where did you read about these men?

[Alicky1872]

Princess Victoria having affairs with numerous men??!!  Reallly!!  I have never read anything to guggest she was anything but a "servant"  and companion to her mother.  In the book "Edward V11's CHildren" by...the name escapes me, the only thing I remember was her ill fated romance to Lord Roseberry.  Not sure it was exactly a romance...just another man she was denied a future with.  Where did you read about these men?

Hello Duchess,
The book was by John Van Der Kiste. And I'm curious too--where does Queen Ena get all this information from?  

[bluetoria]

I' am much more interested in Toria's private life. I did read about her having affairs with numerous men who were they?  

I thought she was always too tired & ill (then again, maybe that's WHY she was always so tired!)
It does seem quite cruel that she wasn't allowed to marry Lord Roseberry (is that how it's spelt?) particularly when QA's arguments was that he was 'beneath her' after Louise had already married Macduff. QA always presented her as not wanting to marry (& she said the same about Maud) but that surely just her own way of justifying her intention to keep them by her side.

[grandduchessella]

Did QV say he was beneath her? I would think it had more to do with the fact that he was a prominent politician (even PM) which could embroil the royal family in politics. Then again he wasn't a hereditary peer like Macduff was he? Maybe that contributed as well. I think the overriding reason was QA's selfishness--even QV allowed her daughters to marry as long as they stayed by her side!

[Duchess_of_Fenwick]

Grandduchessella wrote:" Did QV say he was beneath her? I would think it had more to do with the fact that he was a prominent politician (even PM) which could embroil the royal family in politics. Then again he wasn't a hereditary peer like Macduff was he? Maybe that contributed as well. I think the overriding reason was QA's selfishness--even QV allowed her daughters to marry as long as they stayed by her side! '


I think you are right on there.  Lord Rosebery was the Liberal PM.  According to Van Der Kiste's book, the POW was surprised that Roseberry asked for Victoria's hand .  The Prince apparently objected to his sister Louise's marrige to Lord Lorne in 1870 and thought it "consitutionally unwise" for someone so close to the throne to be linked with a politician.  Or, he bowed to pressure from Alix to keep their daughter at home.  

There is also a story in Van Der Kiste's book of Princess Victoria confiding to a  Mrs. Crayshay about someone "who would have been perfect for her, but 'they' would not let her marry him.  Crayshay recounted, "and if you could have heard her voice break when she said "and we could have been so happy". It was several years later that Crayshay realized that the person the Princess was referring to was Lord Rosebery.

Kind of sad...not an excuse for some of her behaviours later in life but it must have been difficult for her to see her sisters marry and have children and feel "left out".

[bluetoria]

Did QV say he was beneath her? I would think it had more to do with the fact that he was a prominent politician (even PM) which could embroil the royal family in politics.  

The main objections were political, I know, but I DID read it somewhere but can't find it - could it have been in James Pope Hennessy's 'Queen Mary'? - that it was one of the arguments QA used?
No matter...Victoria might have been happier had she not spent her whole life 'tied to the apron strings'...on the other hand, had she had more about her, she might have cut herself free? :-/

[Duchess_of_Fenwick]

I believe she would most definitely have  been happier on her own or married.  (I suppose on your own would not have been an option then).  If she had a family of her own to focuson , her meddlesome behaviour would have  been curtailed.  It's a sad story, she was,I think,the prettier of the 3 girls and had some keen interests and a generous side from what I have read.  It was a tedious life for her - looking after her mother.  I read that she used to "escape" to boarding houses and hotels as well as her apartments at Kensington Palace,  to get away from her stifling situation. (Mmmm hotels & boarding houses? - that's interesting??)  She apparently received little thanks for her efforts in taking care of her mother.  And, it appears that other felt sorry for her...I read where one of the grand Duchesses of Russia called her a glorified servant to her mother (or something like that).

[bluetoria]

Yes, you're probably right. I have this unfortunate bias against all the Waleses...I find them so terribly tedious. They just don't seem to have any 'get up and go' at all (with the minor exception of Maud). What a pity we (in Britain) didn't have some dynamic Hohenzollerns or some profound Hessians, or some histrionic Roumanians ruling us! Perhaps that is why our monarchy survived...because we're so very DULL. (grandduchessella goes to great and much-appreciated lengths to correct me on this! She doesn't find George & May dull at all & I'm trying not to! )
But Toria, to me, just kind of 'sums it up' - what they might have achieved, but didn't!  

[Duchess_of_Fenwick]

I guess it was her destiny!  Such a shame - however there are many who become the "sacrafice" in a family.  I don't want to sound condescending here - many  are very happy and  find tremendous fulfillment in taking care of  and providing  life-long companionship to a parent, however it is quite apparent that Victoria  resented it.