Author Topic: Re: Cousin Toria  (Read 224609 times)

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Margot

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #360 on: February 16, 2010, 04:54:14 PM »
Gosh I can't believe this dear old girl hasn't seen any action in over a year!!!!

She deserves a boot back up the threads IMHO!

Someone posted a lovely piccie of her on Queen Alexandra thread and I just though why not get Victoria back up there!

A question and it is about the dreaded tiara which caused so much debate, dispute and what-not ages ago!

Now, I have checked 'search' here on this thread and can not find the details which I am sure were somewhere on the forum! Maybe it all got mixed up with the similar debacle over whether Helena Victoria ever wore a tiara! Goodness it was all frightfully tedious wasn't it? All that metaphorical bitch slapping over whether or not they had or ever wore a poxy tiara!!!!!! Actually it had an almost 'Queenly' absurdity to it all! I do recall that we solved that one too after many posts of a sparring 'handbags at dawn' nature!

I believe I am correct that Victoria had a tiara made in 1902 for the coronation! I also believe that Victoria left a 'Fringe' tiara to QEQM although I can not for the life of me remember where I read this as I cannot find it in any of my books and think I must have read it online somewhere!

Please help me to remember things properly! Any advice would be hugely appreciated!

I also note as Grace kindly pointed out on the Albert Victor thread, that the National Portrait Gallery has some more photographs on line of Albert Victor and Louise Fife so it may be worth checking to see if there are anymore on there of Victoria!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 05:02:26 PM by Margot »

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #361 on: February 16, 2010, 06:11:15 PM »
Maybe in one of our 7 (!!) Windsor jewel sections? If not, it could've belonged to one of the threads that was lost in the software changeover awhile back. I do recall the conversation, but, like you, cannot precisely remember whether it involved Victoria, Helena Victoria--or both!
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #362 on: February 16, 2010, 07:34:54 PM »

Now, I have checked 'search' here on this thread and can not find the details which I am sure were somewhere on the forum! Maybe it all got mixed up with the similar debacle over whether Helena Victoria ever wore a tiara! Goodness it was all frightfully tedious wasn't it? All that metaphorical bitch slapping over whether or not they had or ever wore a poxy tiara!!!!!! Actually it had an almost 'Queenly' absurdity to it all! I do recall that we solved that one too after many posts of a sparring 'handbags at dawn' nature!

I believe I am correct that Victoria had a tiara made in 1902 for the coronation! I also believe that Victoria left a 'Fringe' tiara to QEQM although I can not for the life of me remember where I read this as I cannot find it in any of my books and think I must have read it online somewhere!



Regarding the fringe, there was this snippet from the Schleswig-Holstein Children thread:

I have yet to see Toria's tiara and a photo of her wearing it. However she may be given or more likely inheited one. I think I saw a photo of her wearing a fringe necklace, but never did she wore that as a tiara.  ???
ERIC....Please read Cartier by Hans Nadelhoffer.(originally published in 1984 by Thames & Hudson in UK/Abrams in USA).Toria's Purchase of a tiara is mentioned there.....As you have seen her wearing the necklace you will no doubt will agree that on other ( perhaps undocumented occassions) she wore it on its tiara frame....NEVER wore it as a tiara is a rather sweeping statement.....
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Margot

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #363 on: February 16, 2010, 07:42:04 PM »
I have trawling the jewel threads and found one of my own comments about wondering where I had read about Victoria's tiara dating from November 2007!

Anyway.....thanks so much for finding that link Ella! I should have known that it would have been someone like Ashdean who would have known about the tiara! Also it is amazingly ironic in light of recent events on the Duke and Duchess of Windsor thread, how some exchanges even from as long ago as 2006 have such a familiar exacerbated tone to them which gave me a brief feeling of deja vu here! I guess some things and people never change! I must admit re-reading the exchanges about the tiara on the Schleswig Holstein thread were an absolute Hoot!!!!!!!

I have lifted some of the posts relating to Victoria's tiara and put them here, but as I do not know how to actually quote directly across threads I have copied and pasted! Anyway I think they need to go on this thread too! As they are quite amusing in a grating sort of way as well as interesting! Here we are:-

Reply # 382 Eddie_UK - Thank you ashdean!  You are a mind of information!! I knew you would know! I'm sure Eric appreciated the information too.

Reply # 383 Eric_Lowe - Since we never saw her wore it as a tiara, it would be speculation to say that she did (even in private parties). Again just becaused she bought a tiara does not mean automatically that she wore it, she could have given it as a present to somebody.

Reply # 384 Ashdean - I do not think in 1902, Victoria would be in a position to buy a tiara as a gift !!! Also as the daughter of the King and with the period of mourning for her grandmother over AND a coronation looming, a tiara would be compulsory...But Eric if you say so,you must (as always) be right....Anyway we are off topic on this thread so I will not enter into the discussion anymore...

Reply # 385 Eric_Lowe - Well...I am sure I am not always right. However I do need proof in convincing of other alternatives. If there are is real merit to it, I will of course accept I am mistaken in good grace.

Back to the family. I wonder if Thora left any jewels to the Royal family like her sister ML ?


Reply # 386 Eddie_UK - *sigh* Our we to believe that just because no pictures exist, that we know off, with Toria in a tiara then she NEVER wore one   . Why own/purchase one if she's not going to wear one  

In answer to your question Eric, probably, Thora did own some faberge peices.  I wouldn't be suprised if ashdean knows the answer but then he's not entering into any furthur discussions on this sadly


All very familiar to me now!!!!!



« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 08:00:59 PM by Margot »

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #364 on: February 17, 2010, 01:29:02 AM »
Nice to see Toria back!
Thank you Margot. A very familiar exchange to me now and rather ironic timing as you say ;)! I hope ashdean is around as he is a mind of information and always very helpful; I think he had information about the fringe tiara that dear Toria left to QEQM!
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kmerov

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #365 on: February 17, 2010, 05:18:44 PM »
In 1896 Prince Max of Baden wanted to marry Toria, but nothing came of it. It's a shame that she wasn't able to get married. She did have her share of royal suitors.

Offline Marc

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #366 on: February 17, 2010, 05:35:33 PM »
Who were the rest?

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #367 on: February 17, 2010, 05:40:07 PM »
In 1896 Prince Max of Baden wanted to marry Toria, but nothing came of it. It's a shame that she wasn't able to get married. She did have her share of royal suitors.

You always have the best info, Kmerov! I'm going to learn Danish and raid your library.  :)  I hadn't heard of Max Baden before. Her name was linked, with varying degrees of truthfulness or plausibility with her cousin Nicholas of Russia and Christian of Denmark. Her 'engagement' was announced, and then denied, in the papers to George of Greece. All first cousins of hers, which should have helped her case with her mother but I don't think there was much substance to them to begin with--certainly not anything with Nicholas past the puppy love phase. I'd love to hear more from Kmerov's great Danish sources!
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Margot

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #368 on: February 17, 2010, 05:42:38 PM »
Yes there is heaps here on this thread especially about Lord Roseberry being the main one, along with her name being briefly linked to the future Christian X of Denmark. There was also talk about the close relationship Victoria had with Nicholas II. I hardly think marriage was ever really an issue for contemplation with regards to this 'special' relationship though as there was the major issue of their being first cousins! I think the Empress Frederick was particularly keen to see Victoria and Maud married and wrote about it during the '90s! There was also a rumour about an equerry Sir Arthur Davidson but I have never seen nor read any hard firm evidence about this one! Perhaps it was just gossip and nothing else!

As has been discussed at great length here, I often question just how strong a hold Alexandra had over her middle daughter and whether Victoria simply never had the strength of will to break out and marry at the first opportunity! Even during the first decade of the last century, when I think she literally blossomed and became quite a beauty, she was still only in the thirties and could have taken a stand if she had really wanted to! I just do not know if any suitable Princelings ever dared to try and woo her! I do not suppose we will ever really know anymore about Victoria's proclivities or the matrimonial opportunities that did present themselves until someone decides to have a rootle in the Royal Archives! Maybe one day this will happen!

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #369 on: February 17, 2010, 05:47:22 PM »
Most royal daughters accepted their fate, in fact, many non-royal daughters accepted the duty of being the 'stay-at-home' daughter to a parent. It was just the time.

Arthur Davidson's name was actually in the papers in connection to Toria but I don't know if there was any real substance or if it was a matter that he was just in close proximity to the princess.  Going back to the early pages of the thread I found this from svetabel (courtesy of a Russian bio on Nicholas):

"In 1887 Grand Duke Michail Michailovitch, an elder brother of famous “Sandro”, visited Enland. Queen Victoria had believed in possible engagement between Michail and Toria. But the shameless Grand Duke declared to young Toria that he “did not love her” and “would not love her”  though “if it was necessary he would marry her”. Poor Toria burst in tears. V was shocked."

Ironic considering how close he and his spouse would become to both Edward and Alexandra and George and Mary--who he had proposed to, as well as Louise of Wales!
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Margot

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #370 on: February 17, 2010, 06:10:45 PM »
I find parallels between Toria and Thora! (I know nicknames but here it is convenience rather than an affectation of familiarity as I am sure most will appreciate) really interesting! It's ok I wont mention the 'L' word! It has no substances nor basis here!

Anyway, two obviously very different personalities yet the Princesses shared similar life styles and circumstances! Now, I accept that future biographers portrayed these two in very contrasting ways! Toria is almost always a cliche of the old maid and Thora is described in a much more positive light! I find this fascinating! I accept that they were obvious very different in their personalities but where did this 'Toria was a bitter spinsterish aunt' come from? Whilst no one seems to think or have evidence that soundly corroborates this! Innuendo yes...alll Maud's 'Poor Toria' quotes in letters is enough to make one believe that life was obviously not that perfect or fun for Toria mouldering away with the 'old ones' but this does not prove that she was that unhappy does it? Thora seems to have been a bit more outgoing than her cousin! One never hears about her being a stereotypically spinsterish old maid! I accept that this leads one to conclude that Toria may have been unhappy with her lot so to speak and Thora was not! But I do not have any really concrete evidence before me and will therefore not set my opinion until I see some real evidence that proves this one way or the other!

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #371 on: February 17, 2010, 07:18:43 PM »
Based on what I've read and observed in older magazines, the biggest difference comes down to their personal lifestyles. Helena didn't demand that Thora be at her back and call--QV called upon Thora much more than her own mother did. You can see Thora, all by herself, not as an appendage, at various events--for duty and pleasure--throughout her long life. She went on vacations, singly and with friends and family. She led a rather indendpent, seemingly fulfilling life. Of course, a large part of this is speculation as I don't know if Thora did or didn't have some romantic regret. I only know that her life was a busy life full of activities and friends. It seems the mirror image of Toria's.
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Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #372 on: February 18, 2010, 01:42:05 AM »
I think Toria was must of been unhappy with her lot, which is where all the various illnesses and ailments stemmed from! I know the family weren't considered in the best health anyway, but I firmly believe disease comes from dis---ease. I don't recall hearing that Thora suffered from the effects of ill health??
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kmerov

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #373 on: February 18, 2010, 05:41:19 PM »
Yes, I think you are right Eddie_uk.  Many Princesses accepted their fate and duty like Gdssella said, and so did non-royal women aswell. But there is no doubt that it also caused some women much frustration and illness, like Toria or her cousin Princess Thyra of Denmark who showed clear signs of frustration which resulted in mild hysteria. Many women in Victorian (or post) times couldn't express these frustrations without seeming to be dis-loyal to parents, and suppressing these feelings could manifest itself in various forms of illness.

kmerov

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Re: Cousin Toria
« Reply #374 on: February 18, 2010, 06:12:58 PM »
Regarding Max of Baden wanting to marry Toria in 1896. He came to see Empress Maria Feodorovna who wrote to Alix,
" Max of Baden asked to see me alone as he had something about which he wanted to talk to me, and imagine what it was. He asked if I believed he could have any hope of marrying your charming Toria. Naturally in a very modest way, he expressed himself as realising what a sacrifice it would be for her and a sorrow for you. I answered that I knew nothing at all about this and could not give him the slightest hope- only write to you about it. What answer you then would give me, I would let him know through his mother Maroussy (Maria of Leuchtenberg). I merely said to him that I knew for certain that she would never live in Berlin or Potsdam, to which he replied that yes, I know, and he would immediately leave it to go to Baden.
I am quite unhappy at having to give you this unpleasantness, to write all this, which I know will upset you, my poor angel Alix, but what was I to do, he so asked me, and he is, you know, such a nice, good-looking and distinguished young man of whom I am very fond, and who would probably be able to make a very good husband if she could love him. But that is the question. He is naturally waiting impatiently for an answer-through me".

Unfortunately I don't know Alix reply.