Author Topic: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces  (Read 31854 times)

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Sarai_Porretta

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OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« on: April 21, 2004, 07:38:46 AM »
I am interested in learning more about the details and procedures followed for the pregnancies and births of the Imperial children. I am interested to know as a woman myself and also for historical curiosity. Were the pregnancies particularly difficult? I remember reading in Massie's Nicholas and Alexandra years ago that Alix fainted twice during Mass when she was pregnant with Maria (I am guessing this may have happened before she even knew she was pregnant), and also that once the Dowager Empress advised her to eat ham (if I recall correctly) to help with her morning sickness. I imagine that since Alix was generally young and healthy when pregnant with Olga, this pregnancy may have gone smoothly, but with subsequent pregnancies her health began to wane and all of the discomforts that she normally felt when she was not pregnant must have been exacerbated by her condition. Did Alix have to follow a special diet while pregnant, especially since she was said to eat so little most of the time? I recall reading that the only thing she did change was that she did not fast during Lent. In general, I am interested in how pregnant women were treated during this time, as they are so very fussed over nowadays and so much care is taken, I wonder if this was always the case to an extent.

Regarding the births themselves, were they particularly difficult? I know that all of the babies were rather large, and if I'm not mistaken, forceps were used in Olga's birth. I wonder who else was in attendance, aside from the doctor, at these happy events - was Nicky allowed in the room (if he even wanted to be), or any other family members? Was there a special room set aside for the births or did they just occur in the Imperial couple's bedroom? Was any anesthetic such as chloroform used to alleviate the pain? These minute little details all fascinate me, as they not only instruct us as to the conventions of pregnancy and childbirth during Victorian times but we learn how these dear children came into the world.

Arleen_Ristau

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2004, 08:36:59 AM »
GOOD SUBJECT!!  I m very much interested in this.  Surely Alexandra had chloroform, even Queen Victoria did for most of her births she mentions it a lot in letters with her daughter Victoria.  
In the pictures Olga had a huge head (as did Nicholas II) Queen Victoria even remarked on how large her head was, and wasn't she 11 lbs. or was that another of the babies.  But at any rate what an awful time she must have had. All of the details would be most welcome!!
Arleen

Sarai_Porretta

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2004, 01:12:13 PM »
I found some information to add to this thread. There are a series of very good articles on OTMAA at the Suite 101 site, which is where I found the following information about the children's births:

Olga's article (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/16444/93676)
"Olga was a large baby weighing 10 pounds and measuring 55 centimeters. It had been a difficult birth, but Nicholas and Alix couldn’t have been happier about the little girl."

I found this interesting as it reminds us of Olga's large birth weight and the fact that it was a "difficult birth."

Tatiana's article (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/16444/94190)
"This pregnancy had been more difficult than the first one, and the young Empress was kept to her bed for seven weeks. The birth pangs began at night, and yet an entire commission of family members and doctors rapidly collected itself at her bedside."

From Nicky's diary: "Poor Alix suffered all night without shutting her eyes for a moment, and at 8 o'clock went downstairs to Mama’s bedroom. Thank God this time it all went quickly and safely Tatiana weighs 8¾ pounds and is 54cm long."

I found several interesting points here:
1) It says that Alix was prescribed bed rest for nearly two months prior to Tatiana's birth due to a difficult pregnancy. I would like to know what made it so difficult. Also, although the pregnancy was difficult, the birth itself seems to have been easier than Olga's, as Nicholas writes "Thank God this time it all went quickly and safely." From the words "this time" I get the impression it wasn't so the first time.
2) The article states that "an entire commission of family members" gathered themselves at Alix's bedside. I wonder whether this gathering at her bedside was meant literally, and if the large group of relatives was allowed to be present at the actual birth. I can imagine this may have been uncomfortable for Alix, as for any woman who would have to endure childbirth with many witnesses around. I wonder if this was just Russian Imperial tradition or family preference (I suspect it was the latter). I do recall from my readings that Queen Victoria insisted on being present at the births of her grandchildren and was very irked when she was not able to make it in time.
3) Nicholas states that Tatiana was born in his mother's bedroom (remember that she was born at Peterhof). So the birth did not occur in the Imperial couple's own bedroom. This also leads me to think that the Dowager Empress may have been present at the birth as well, as it took place in her bedroom and I can also just imagine that she would want to be in the room at the birth of her grandchild, regardless of Alix's wishes. I do recall reading somewhere that the Dowager Empress was called to the Alexander Palace when Alix began having labour pains with Olga, so I imagine she may have been witness at that birth as well. Again, I wonder how Alix felt about this, as she was not particularly close or fond of her mother-in-law, but perhaps would not have wanted to contradict her wishes regarding this matter.
4) Finally, note that Tatiana was the smallest of the babies. I don't remember Maria's weight, but I am pretty sure it was more than Tatiana's 8 pounds.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Sarai_Porretta »

Sarai_Porretta

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2004, 01:12:37 PM »
Maria's article (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/16444/94410)
"The happy preparations were soon halted, however, by the difficulty that this pregnancy caused her. Tormented by unmerciful cramps and nausea, Alix took to her bed in the second month and had to use a wheel chair for mobility."

It was interesting to note here that, while Alix had to have special rest with Tatiana during her seventh month of pregnancy, with Maria it happened all the way back in only the second month! What a trial this must have been for her. I think this was definitely her worst pregnancy.

Anastasia's article (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/16444/95263)
From Nicky's diary: "At about 3 o'clock in the morning, Alix started to have strong pains. At 4 o'clock I got up, went to my room and dressed. At exactly 6 o'clock in the morning our little daughter was born. Everything went off splendidly, quite quickly and thank God without complications! Thanks to the fact that it all began and ended while everyone was still asleep, we both had a feeling of calm and solitude! After that I sat down to write telegrams to relatives and friends in various parts of the world. Luckily Alix felt quite cheerful. The little one weighs 11½ pounds and measures 55 centimeters."

Interesting to note that this birth was probably the easiest yet. Labour lasted only three hours and the birth is described as having gone "splendidly" and "quite quickly," despite the fact that at 11.5 pounds, Anastasia was a very large baby indeed! I think she was the biggest baby of all her siblings, saying this without knowing Maria's weight. This birth also seems to have been the calmest for the Imperial couple, as Nicholas mentions everyone was asleep and I imagine it was pretty much just the two of them sharing that special moment in solitude, without any excited relatives around to disturb them.

Alexei's article (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/16444/95648The)
"Labor had lasted only two hours [...] the baby measured 58 centimeters and weighed 11 pounds."

The only thing of interest here is that this was the shortest labour of all the children - only 2 hours! - and the baby's weight.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Sarai_Porretta »

Thomas_A.

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2004, 07:34:20 AM »

I read that also Grand Duchess Ella Feodorowna stayed with Alix and the Dowager Empress during Olga's birth.

Alix' health was not at all good BEFORE she was pregnant for the first time. She suffered from sciatica since she was a young woman and long ceremonies, balls and services tired her indescribably.

Louise

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2004, 09:54:04 AM »
It was customary for there to be attendees at royal births. It was to assure the country, the court, that the child was of royal birth and there was no possibilty of switching children, etc.

I believe that the Duke of York, the future King George, father of our present Queen, halted this archiac custom when the Queen Mother gave birth to the furture Queen and Princess Maragret.

Louise

Sarai_Porretta

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2004, 11:01:24 AM »
Helen,
When I started this thread, I figured that some people would feel uncomfortable discussing this subject, as it is so very private. But I thought that nevertheless it would be interesting to discuss, and it is just a natural part of life. I for one am quite interested in learning about every little detail of the family's life, and the births of their children were such an important part of their lives that I can't help but be curious about that aspect as well.  :)

As Louise said, having witnesses to royal births was a custom dating back centuries. I recall reading in Fraser's biography of Marie Antoinette that there were numerous people present at the births of her children, and this right was considered a great privilege. It was so hot and crowded in the room at the birth of her first child that the poor Queen fainted. This was done for the political reasons that Louise pointed out. I am not sure if the same custom applied in Russia, whereas there had to be various witnesses to the births or if there simply happened to be relatives around just because they wanted to be there. As is mentioned in Anastasia's birth, Nicky and Alix were mostly alone when it happened, so it seems nobody else had to be there.

Louise

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2004, 02:19:02 PM »
I think one of the most appalling scenes in the annals of royal births, was the birth of Paul. How terrible it must have been for Catherine to give birth with all those people milling around, only to have her baby snatched from her and then the final humiliation--to lie in blood soaked sheets and not be cared for. Absolutely barbaric.

I'm so glad that Alix was so loved that Nicky was with her and that Alix was considered chattel.

Louise

anna

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2004, 04:11:01 PM »
Sarai, you wrote that Nicholas states that Tatiana was born in his mothers bedroom. What I've read is that only Irene, Nicky and his Danish grandmother Queen Louise were present. Marie stayed away-possibly at the accoucheur's request. Her presence would have increased  Alix's nervousness and made her labour more burdensome. Alix was moved into the bedroom of Queen Louise, so that in tribute to her, the baby could be born.
I've also read that it was agreed that at the moment of birth, the accoucheur would give Nicky a silent signal of the baby's sex, so that Alix would be spared of any shock.

Anna


Sarai_Porretta

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2004, 08:01:19 AM »
I was under the impression from my readings that Tatiana was born in Marie's bedroom at the "Farm Palace" in Peterhof. I know that she was definitely born at Peterhof. As far as which bedroom, I had not read that she was born in Queen Louise's bedroom, as Nicky's own diary entry states that Alix was moved to his Mama's bedroom. Since the next thing he writes about is the birth, I assumed that's where she was born. I don't know, perhaps she may have been moved to Queen Louise's bedroom after she was first moved to Marie's bedroom, and Nicky just doesn't mention that in his diary.

So...Marie may not have been present in the room at this birth. I just thought there was a possibility she may have been since the birth apparently took place in her bedroom and the way in which I view her forceful personality, I figured she may have insisted on staying. But I'm glad to read she may not have been there after all, as I'm sure her presence would have caused Alix further stress.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Sarai_Porretta »

anna

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2004, 11:26:23 AM »
Hi Sarai,

I've found it :D. The fact you said Nicky wrote: Tatiana was born in his mothers bedroom was spinning around my head all day. Was I wrong ???

Now something stupid happened today at the office. A colleague dropped a cup of hot coffee on the floor and yelled "Ah Mama". Suddenly I knew!!! "A lifelong Passion" I couldn't wait to get home. So here it is.

Quote: Nicky, diary 29 may Tsarkoe Selo:
"Poor Alix suffered all night without shutting her eyes for
a moment an at 8 o'clock went downstairs to Amama's bedroom."

Amama is Nicky's grandmother Queen Louise. :D. You mist the A. ;D. So now we can put our minds to rest.
Problem solved ;)

regards,

Anna


anna

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2004, 11:55:42 AM »
Oh dear!!

Mixed up two languages: I said you mist the A.  I mean "you misread the capital letter A.
Sorry had a busy day.

Anna

Sarai_Porretta

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2004, 12:49:27 PM »
anna,
Thank you very much for clearing this up! Obviously, the website where I got that quote from had it wrong. What confusion one little letter can cause! ::) I assumed it was correct but ideally I should have checked other sources to verify the quote. Anyway, so now we know the actual facts. Tatiana was born in her paternal great-grandmother's bedroom. Which also backs up the assumption that Marie was not present after all, as you had stated (I thought it was more likely that she was if the birth took place in her very own bedroom). By the way, I found it funny how your colleague's "Ah, mama!" exclamation was the key to unlocking this whole little mystery! ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Sarai_Porretta »

NAAOTMA

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2004, 11:35:30 AM »
In the book BIOGRAPHY OF A MARRIAGE by Mary Churchill Soames, the author writes a little of her mother Clementine Churchill's confinements. Clementine Churchill was married to Winston Churchill in 1908, and had a total of five children. The prevailing social attitudes toward pregnacy, and the medical practices of delivery and postpartum recovery, are touched on. The practice of upperclass women staying in bed, not touching toe to the floor, for two weeks after delivery is such a contrast to today's world. I also recall that the current Queen of England broke traditional protocol with her last two pregnancies by appearing in public after she started to show. That was a holdover from at least Victorian times. Any royal lady who had to withdraw to the privacy of her personal apartments by social custom once she started showing would have not been seen much by society or everyday people during the course of a pregnancy, not to mention several pregnancies. And if she insisted on breastfeeding the baby herself, she would not have been out and about much socially until the baby was weaned...   Melissa K.

rskkiya

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Re: OTMAA's birthdays/birthplaces
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2004, 09:10:20 AM »
Kharasho!
Krasnavitsa Anastasia!

I am so sorry if this question is really too rude, but does anyone know if Alix breastfed the children? Victorian morality aside, was it considered healthier for a wet nurse in Russia - or was it the responsability of the Imperial mummie?

Ps-- could anyone explain the difference between a name day and a birthday in Orthodoxy?

I'm so nosy! :)