Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II

[Vecchiolarry]

Hello HerrKaiser,

Yes, I agree with you most vehemently.  Calling people names, especially since we don't know them personally, is reprehensible and bullying actually.
I don't know much, if anything, about Charlotte - I thought she was good looking!!! - but I have to admire Victoria Augusta for putting up with a difficult position and maintaining many 'good works' in Prussia...  She also looked like an Empress - very impressive and stalwart!!

Larry

[Eric_Lowe]

Well...It was Bismark who called Dona "The cow from Holstein" and because of his position he could get away with it. As for "The Brat" it was a name that Charlotte strangely relish for some reason even signing it in her photographs to her relatives. I think she viewed herself as a rebel. She most certainly did not respect Dona and made fun of her behind her back with her "fast set" of friends in Berlin.

[grandduchessella]

Let's not veer off-topic, please.

I don't think anything was meant by Eugenie's comment--it was her opinion of the slender, golden-haired prince at that time in her life and his. It wasn't meant disparagingly--she was a great fan of his and Vicky's. I think too much is being read into it. He doesn't strike me as a Lohengrin until later in his life with his soldierly bearing (hardened by war) and his thick beard. His bearing when he was roughly 20-23 is much different from him at 40-43.

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi,

My premise is that - no matter whatever names they called themselves or each other, it is not our place to do so....  I don't care what Bismark called the Empress, he was disrespectful and rude;  and we should not be.

Larry

[Eric_Lowe]

I agree with Eugenie that Fritz was very much a romantic figure (Hamlet) during his youth.

[OctoberLily]

Amen, Larry.

[Kalafrana]

Me too.

Interesting that Empress Eugenie likened Friedrich to Hamlet. I always think of Hamlet as dark, plus, describing someone as a Hamlet in Britain today is not a compliment. It has connotations of exaggeration and melodrama - a footballer rolling around on the ground after being tackled is 'playing Hamlet'.

Ann

[HerrKaiser]

Hi,

My premise is that - no matter whatever names they called themselves or each other, it is not our place to do so....  I don't care what Bismark called the Empress, he was disrespectful and rude;  and we should not be.

Larry

Well said. Particularly when casual use of calling Dona a "cow" serves to wrongly establish her image and persona amongst people who do not know and appreciate her true regal, sophisticated, and highly attractive being.

[Превед]

Well said. Particularly when casual use of calling Dona a "cow" serves to wrongly establish her image and persona amongst people who do not know and appreciate her true regal, sophisticated, and highly attractive being.

Personally I see her neither as a cow nor as full of grandezza, but as the Kirchen-Guste who built hundred churches in the vain effort to save the working classes from Socialism.

BTW that (the bigotted church stuff) is just one of many striking similarities between VA and AF. Both empresses so reclusive, so devoted to their children, their husbands and nursing their husbands' frail (delusional) autocratic egos. No wonder they couldn't stand each other, as they probably saw some of their own bad qualities reflected in each other.

[HerrKaiser]

Well said. Particularly when casual use of calling Dona a "cow" serves to wrongly establish her image and persona amongst people who do not know and appreciate her true regal, sophisticated, and highly attractive being.

Personally I see her neither as a cow nor as full of grandezza, but as the Kirchen-Guste who built hundred churches in the vain effort to save the working classes from Socialism.

BTW that (the bigotted church stuff) is just one of many striking similarities between VA and AF. Both empresses so reclusive, so devoted to their children, their husbands and nursing their husbands' frail (delusional) autocratic egos. No wonder they couldn't stand each other, as they probably saw some of their own bad qualities reflected in each other.

Good points. I agree with some of those similarities between VA and AF.  However, I don't think Dona can be viewed any where near the recluse that AF was; in fact, is there anywhere she is actually characterized as a recluse? I've always seen, read, and heard of her as a very willing participant in social and private doings.

I also don't think the motivation for Dona's building sponsorships was saving the masses from socialism. Rather, she was a devoted Christian and committed to the beautification of the cityscapes which her churches most definitely added a sense of splendor we enjoy today (what's left of them, that is).

[Eric_Lowe]

Also Dona was as mild as a cow to Willy's wishes unlike AF who instilled her own wishes in politics via Rasputin even to the point of bullying her husband. Willy never had that kind of love for Dona as he once did for Ella. That was the reason Dona tried very hard to please him and never did venture into politics like AF or her mother-in-law (Vicky) or grandmother-in-law (Augusta of Saxe-Weimar).

[grandduchessella]

Once again---please stay on topic. We've had multiple off topic posts just since the last request. Empress Augusta Victoria has her own thread. Thanks.

[grandduchessella]

Me too.

Interesting that Empress Eugenie likened Friedrich to Hamlet. I always think of Hamlet as dark, plus, describing someone as a Hamlet in Britain today is not a compliment. It has connotations of exaggeration and melodrama - a footballer rolling around on the ground after being tackled is 'playing Hamlet'.

Ann

But as we're frequently admonished, we shouldn't look at it by today's standards. Reading Eugenie's whole quote makes it apparent that she considered her remark to connotate a more romantic version of Hamlet--not the more modern, mopey Hamlet--as was prevelant in Victorian times. And Hamlet, being a Dane, would generally bring to mind a golden haired prince. (Would that Olivier have played it with his natural dark hair as that blonde 'do always took me out of the performance a bit.  )

Even if it had denonoted a certain melancholy, that isn't unrealistic either. Vicky herself remarked that Fritz was easily cast down and depressed. While he certain wasn't melancholy by nature, it wasn't unknown to him either.

[Eric_Lowe]

I am convinced that Eugenie meant it in a romanticize way of Hamlet than the mopey one.

[HerrKaiser]

I am convinced that Eugenie meant it in a romanticize way of Hamlet than the mopey one.

What people are saying is that whatever may have convinced you to take the single comment and put the image forth that you did in the beginning is a dangerous way to make historical comments. As we have seen, the use of side and/or anecdotal comments may seriously misrepresent who and what a historic figure really was.