Author Topic: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II  (Read 319809 times)

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Eric_Lowe

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #585 on: December 16, 2013, 05:20:38 PM »
This is more of what Empress Eugenie personally thought than a provable historical observation.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #586 on: December 17, 2013, 08:34:29 AM »
Isn't that just what we've been saying to you for the last week - that the Empress was taking a romantic view of the young Friedrich, which or may not have owed much to reality?

Ann

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #587 on: December 18, 2013, 06:44:38 PM »
Not really since even Vicky wrote that Fritz could be easily cast down or depressed. So Eugenie might have seen a side of him that was actually real.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #588 on: December 18, 2013, 09:06:40 PM »
Eric, where and exactly what did Vicky say about "depression"? Did she really use that term? While she was a capable and educated person, her diagnosis of depression is suspect at best. Everyone points out others' blues or down-in-the-dumps periods which does not at all suggest a psychological problem.
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #589 on: December 19, 2013, 10:39:38 AM »
I was the one who first commented on Vicky and Fritz being depressed. She wrote of it in The Empress Frederick Writes to Sophie and, I believe, in one of the volumes of letters to her mother. It wasn't a clinical diagnosis (ie Fritz suffered from depression) but rather that he could be easily depressed or 'cast down' by events. This was something she saw in Sophie (and who wrote frequently of feeling depressed--her words) as well and she compared her to her father.  Vicky once wrote to Sophie "He was so sensitive, and felt so deeply the injustice of his fate." This sensitivity, she believed, caused him (and she saw the same in Sophie) to be worn down by smaller sadnesses & disappointments which left them vulnerable to the bigger disappointments and tragedies. She didn't think there was a psychological, chronic condition--just a facet of their personality. She, and other women in the family, speak often of 'being low', 'depressed' and having a period of depression.

Fritz had undoubtedly been marked by his upbringing--no wonder he responded so heartily to the much different atmosphere of Victoria & Albert's family life. "Papa always said he could not bear to think of his childhood, he had been so unhappy and miserable, and had many a time wished himself out of this world."

I don't think any of this should be taken as a criticism--Fritz was human and flawed like everyone. And Vicky, who adored him above all, certainly wouldn't write anything false or harsh towards him. In EFWTS she writes on the anniversary of his death:

"'It was such a comfort to receive your dear telegram this morning. I knew your thoughts would be here, where it hardly seems possible to me, even now, that two sad years have elapsed since that dread hour, that I have lost for ever what I held most dear on earth, that my children are deprived of the best father, and the country of the one man who would have been such a blessing to it . . . his hopes and aims were noble and pure and good . . . oh, that the love and peace he sought to spread would penetrate some
hearts and make them feel what wrong they have done. . . I try to be brave I assure you, and not to think of myself, but oh! the longing for one squeeze of dear Papa's big hand, for a kiss, for the sound of his voice or his step, is so heavy, it takes all courage out of me. To face life and struggle on without him seems too hard, too incomprehensible.' "

And later:  "Oh, how I miss darling Papa so cruelly, and in the morning on waking, his empty pillow, his silent and empty rooms, make me so wretched. It is no use to grieve and to mourn, but one cannot help it. How unfeeling I should be if I did not suffer this pain.' "

"I look round in vain for beloved Papa's dear face and fine tall figure, so broad and strong and handsome. The christenings of you all came so vividly before me, and I cannot believe that all the terrible things I have been through are reality and not a bad dream. . . . It is just on 33 years ago that I arrived here in Berlin, a young bride, very shy and uncomfortable, and yet it seems to me like yesterday.' "

She talks of his "dear noble face, so manly and calm". When Margaret married, and had things been different they would now be 'empty nesters' she writes "'The struggle I went through on the 25 th I shall never forget. I thought of my own wedding 3 5 years ago, and had a heart-sick longing for dear Papa, to be able to throw my arms around his
neck and say, now we are alone, in the house together once more, as we were when we were bride and bridegroom. But all was silence around me."

Frederick III is my favorite male royal and his romance with Vicky probably my favorite royal romance.
 
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
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Eric_Lowe

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #590 on: December 25, 2013, 07:02:46 PM »
Indeed. Fritz did not come from a happy household and was attracted by Vicky's strength and cleverness and never used it as a weapon against her (like Bismark). He was loved the fact that she came from a happy household and always popular in her family (even won over Princess Alexandra of Wales and her sister Dagmar). But trying to be a pleaser to his parents must have been hard and one could see why he might have moments of depression. Trying to reconcile Wilhelm I and Augusta of Saxe-Weimar (one of my most disliked figures in history) was a hopeless task.

gillian

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #591 on: January 19, 2014, 06:15:41 AM »
I'm curious about Fritz's relationships with his children. Vicky's parenting skills and problems with her children have been discussed quite a bit on here and in books but I don't know much about Fritz as a parent. From what I've been able to gather he was a good father but I haven't found much else on his specific relationships with each individual child. I know Vicky was much closer to her younger children and I wonder if it was a similar story with Fritz.

Victoria's Daughters has an interesting quote on his view on Wilhelm's handicap: "Though the boy's father never experienced insuperable trouble accepting the injury as something that couldn't be changed his mother was appalled that she had brought a far less than perfect future Prussian king into the world." (pg. 75) Not entirely convinced that's completely true. But I don't know how involved he was in attempting to fix Willy's arm or what he thought of the array of sometimes cruel/ludicrous treatments used to 'cure' the condition. Wilhelm seemed to respect and idolize his father when he was younger. However it seems that his relationships with his mother and paternal grandparents are seen as having more an influence on him. He didn't get along with either parent as an adult especially after Bismarck. And of course he raided his dead father's things in search of documents he could use against both parents. However he seems to have blamed his mother more (or entirely) for his miserable childhood based on some of his statements.

I can't find anything specific about Charlotte's relationship with her father. I think she was the favorite of Wilhelm I and Augusta though. She was arguably to most difficult of the whole bunch and seemed to have fallen out with a lot of her family members during her lifetime. I'm also curious if Fritz had any relationship with Charlotte's daughter Feodora? She was nine when he died, so she probably had some memory of him. Charlotte often left her daughter with Vicky for long periods of time but I'm not sure if this was common during Fritz's lifetime or after he died and Vicky had fewer responsibilities and more time to raise Charlotte's daughter.

Same thing with Henry.  However I think Henry was actually a lot like his father in terms of personality. He was friendly and easygoing and generally well liked. He did side with his grandparents and older brother politically at times which indicates some distance from both parents. He generally didn't meddle with politics or have much interest in them otherwise, his mother would later complain that neither he nor his wife read a newspaper. I think he was much closer to his mother after marrying Irene of Hesse but since that happened literally right before Fritz died I can't see it as having much impact on their relationship.

As for poor Sigismund and Waldemar both parents were described as being devastated by their early deaths. Fritz was away when Sigismund died and chose not to leave his post with the army to attend his funeral even though Wilhelm I had granted him permission to do so. I'm pretty sure this was more an indication of Fritz's strong sense of duty as opposed to his real feelings about Sigi's death. I read somewhere that he felt guilty because so many doctors had come with the Prussian army, leaving nobody available to take care of Sigismund. Waldemar's wikipedia article states he was the favorite of both parents. Which would make sense especially if Fritz was also closer to his younger children.

Viktoria, Sophie, and Margaret shared their parents political views and were closest to their father towards the end of his life. Fritz also supported (though it's implied Vicky pressured him somewhat) Viktoria's possible engagement to Alexander of Battenberg, despite the opposition from just about everyone else in his family. After Fritz died Vicky wrote of these three: "I have my three sweet girls - he loved so much - that are my consolation." All of the girls were still quite young when he died and I wonder what he would've thought of their marriages or some of the problems they had with their brother. i.e. Sophie's conversion to the Orthodox faith.

I guess I've sort of answered my own question here but is there anything anyone else can add?



Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #592 on: January 22, 2014, 06:53:33 PM »
Nice summary, Gillian. I think unlike most German households, particularly amongst the nobility, Vicky took a more dominant role, compared to Fritz, in raising their children. As a result, I suspect Wilhelm and his siblings tended to view their father from a distance and with greater admiration. He really seemed to be the quintessential Mr. Nice Guy and children react to that well.
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Offline DNAgenie

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #593 on: January 22, 2014, 08:02:31 PM »
There is an interesting comment in a letter from Victoria to her mother on 6 May 1865: "I think it is so wise of you to let the boys travel as much as possible; they learn so much; it forms their character and makes them independent. I hope we shall be allowed to send our Willy all over the world but we are in a difficult position as Fritz's parents interfere so much in all we do with the children.  The King dislikes all innovations, as most people about Court here do and think that where the children are born there they are to grow up and never go away for fear of their becoming estranged from their country.  It is such a mistake; the more they move about the happier they are to return, and then value their home all the more.  The more they see and learn, the better it fits them for their future position. This is the place of "tradition"; that word is an all powerful argument; what never has been done - never is to be done, and all people who think differently are unpatriotic. This is the opinion."

Another interesting and relevant comment in a letter of 31 May 1865 from Victoria to Queen Vic: "Tomorrow dear Willy goes; he is so sorry - he keeps saying, "I don't want to go away from you, Mama."  He had some vague fear of there being no soldiers in the place he is going to and that is a grief to his little mind. Dear child, he is so precious to me and I grudge giving him up so completely to the rule and care of people who, however good and trustworthy and excellent, are not intelligent enough to be the right companions to him. You are quite right in saying that we are fortunate in having an intelligent "eldest" child. I feel it to be a blessing of providence and am grateful for it."

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #594 on: January 22, 2014, 09:02:16 PM »
Very interesting indeed. What's most interesting is how Fritz emerged as a young man with ideals and beliefs more in line with Vicky than his parents. He was not raised in the style of QV's household, yet he apparently on his own and in spite of his surroundings became a more worldly and open-minded adult.
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #595 on: January 22, 2014, 09:08:52 PM »
Empress Augusta was actually regarded as pretty liberal and I think Wilhelm, for whatever reason, went along with that style of upbringing. Victoria & Albert were very friendly with Augusta--I think she became more conservative as she aged and colder as life in Berlin and her loveless marriage took its toll. But as a younger woman, V&A regarded her as more in line with their way of thinking than Bismarckian.

As for Fritz--some of his writings regarding Waldemar and Sigismund and their loss closely resemble Vicky's. Grieving the loss not just of these splendid sons but of their potential and their idealized memories.
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
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Offline Превед

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #596 on: January 22, 2014, 09:28:04 PM »
Empress Augusta was not just from liberal, artistic Weimar, but was also pro-Catholic, something which raised some eyebrows in Berlin. Her happiest time was when she and Wilhelm resided in Koblenz, in the Catholic Rhineland. A contrast to Bismarck's wife Johanna von Puttkamer, who was a fervently Pietistic Protestant from Farther Pomerania. (Interestingly the Puttkamers might be of Slavic origin: Puttkamer > putcumer / pod-komer = under-chamberlain).

BTW her French reader Jules Laforgue was a poet who introduced the clitoris as a literary topos. (Probably unbeknownst to Her Majesty!)
... Et votre clitoris qui vous tordrait pâmée
En de longs spasmes de langueur....

Risqué, bien sûr
, but it's so nice to write a post that combines onomastic etymology with genital poetry! After all, the Romanovs (Augusta's maternal family) claimed Prussia (the region, not the kingdom) as their legendary womb and doesn't Pomerania and Prussia meet in the Hel Peninsula / Putziger Nehrung, something of a Baltic clitoris!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 09:59:21 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #597 on: January 22, 2014, 10:09:50 PM »
It is strange that William I and Augusta would have raised their two children in more liberal fashion/ideals, then convert to disallowing and/or interfering with such direction for their grandchildren. I wonder if Fritz and Vicky were just not very good at following through with their principles (as Augusta was before them?) in face of pressure to allow other agendas to take control? Vicky was a very young mother in a very different environment, both of which could have made her less "pushy" than she may have wanted to be.
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #598 on: January 22, 2014, 10:16:45 PM »

BTW her French reader Jules Laforgue was a poet who introduced the clitoris as a literary topos. (Probably unbeknownst to Her Majesty!)
... Et votre clitoris qui vous tordrait pâmée
En de longs spasmes de langueur....


Augusta would have clutched her pearls and fainted, in spite of her liberal persuasions. :)
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Offline DNAgenie

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Re: Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II
« Reply #599 on: January 22, 2014, 10:58:27 PM »
HerrKaiser wrote:
Quote
It is strange that William I and Augusta would have raised their two children in more liberal fashion/ideals, then convert to disallowing and/or interfering with such direction for their grandchildren.

The difference was that when William and Augusta brought up Frederick and Louise they were just the Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Prussia, with no power in the Prussian scheme of things. William knew he would be King one day, but that is a long way from actually being the King of Prussia. When he became King, his attitude changed markedly. After that, in his eyes, anyone who disagreed with his (the King's) opinions was guilty of treason. His attitude to his son Frederick changed most dramatically at that point and Frederick found it very difficult to deal with.  Before his father became king, Frederick had been quite strongly influenced by his mother's more liberal ideals, but when his father succeeded to the throne of Prussia in 1861 Frederick was faced with an entirely different parental attitude.  Victoria faced similar difficulties, of course. When she married Fredrick in 1858 she had known William and Augusta as pleasant and reasonably amenable in-laws, but after William became William I of Prussia in 1861 everything changed.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 11:06:50 PM by DNAgenie »