Kaiser Friedrich III, his spouse Victoria and their family, Part II

[Kalafrana]

Msge 593
Where was Wilhelm going? In 1865 he was only six - interesting that he was already enamoured of soldiers.

Ann

[Превед]

Msge 593
Where was Wilhelm going? In 1865 he was only six

Hinzpeter became his tutor in 1866. Didn't he (and his mother?) go for spa treatments on the East Frisian Islands in his childhood?

[HerrKaiser]

Msge 593
Where was Wilhelm going? In 1865 he was only six - interesting that he was already enamoured of soldiers.

Ann

Boys of that age, even younger, are fully enamored by soldiers, firemen, policemen, Superman and other male images of strength and prowess. In Wilhelm's case, he was surrounded by uniformed men and talk of war, battles, and things military. I suspect it was fairly easy for him to adopt a fascination with such.

[Kalafrana]

Herr Kaiser

Thanks for that. I can't remember my brother being enamoured of soldiers at that age, but he was certainly mad about cars and cowboys!

Ann

[Eric_Lowe]

Willy was a very complicated character to understand. He loved his mother, but he was also angry with her for demanding so much from him (he also secretly blamed her for his stiff arm and English Doctors). He allowed himself to be seduced by Bismark (too late when the old man found out he helped to create a monster) and the like based on the past military grandeur of the Prussian Royal House. He loved Ella, but rather than being turned down by her (she did not encourage his efforts to court her in any fashion and made it clear to him that she wasn't interested), he reached out for the lowest hanging fruit in Dona. The plain and awkward girl with a possible unequal background. She did his bidding even though there are times Willy did not appreciate it (her later rudeness to Vicky was not appreciated by Willy when he sought to please his mother). He got blamed for WWI even though Franz Joesf of Austria, The Serbs and Tsar Nicholas II was equally to blame for starting it.

[HerrKaiser]

Willy was a very complicated character to understand. He loved his mother, but he was also angry with her for demanding so much from him (he also secretly blamed her for his stiff arm and English Doctors). He allowed himself to be seduced by Bismark (too late when the old man found out he helped to create a monster) and the like based on the past military grandeur of the Prussian Royal House. He loved Ella, but rather than being turned down by her (she did not encourage his efforts to court her in any fashion and made it clear to him that she wasn't interested), he reached out for the lowest hanging fruit in Dona. The plain and awkward girl with a possible unequal background. She did his bidding even though there are times Willy did not appreciate it (her later rudeness to Vicky was not appreciated by Willy when he sought to please his mother). He got blamed for WWI even though Franz Joesf of Austria, The Serbs and Tsar Nicholas II was equally to blame for starting it.

There you go again, disrespecting Empress Augusta. She was clearly not the 'lowest hanging fruit'; far from it. While she may have been "plain" in her youth few among the royal houses weren't plain by today's standards. But she did emerge as queen and empress into a grand and impressive appearing woman of high rank, equal or more so to any of her noble peers.

Wilhelm was not an "old man" when he rejected Bismarck.

Yes, Wilhelm got blamed for WWI, but in addition to Austria, Serbia, and Russia, Great Britain and France shoulder equal blame for the catastrophe that left all of European/western culture in a shambles from which a complete recovery has yet to be realized. 

[grandduchessella]

Both John Rohl's book on Wilhelm (vol 1 especially) and the recent book Imperial Requiem (which has Dona as one of its focuses) sheds a lot of light on the up & down, complicated relationship between Wilhelm & Dona. Wilhelm was more passionate about her in the beginning (despite the stories of his early Ella infatuation) but he would blow hot & cold (alternately disregarding and then clinging to her) throughout the relationship. She was never treated by him as an equal in the way of Fritz and Vicky but he depending on her for emotional equilibrium and stability more than previously realized.

[HerrKaiser]

It's astounding to me how a man, John Rohl, could spend most of his life researching and writing about a person he loathed and makes no apologies about his deep-seated dislike for Wilhelm II. In spite of his credentials as a historian, I find it implausible that his biography is untainted with his negative bias. It's unfortunate that such a pivotal figure in 20th century history as WII was remains largely cast in the shadows of the great war and the post period Anglo American spin on history.

[Eric_Lowe]

Dona was a "low hanging fruit" in the royal marriage stakes. Even after the announcement, the Prussian court still have to investigate if her family was "untainted" enough to marry the heir to the throne (Remember Wilhelm I had to give up Princess Elise Radziwill for that even though her mother was in fact a Princess of the House of Hohenzollern). Not to mention the surprise of QV who though Willy would pick the prettier Calma (Caroline Mathilda, younger sister of Dona) than the pain Dona. Dona of course was not ugly, but hardly comparable to Ella in looks, there is no disrespect in that but a hard cold fact. Vicky was rooting for Dona & Calma for Willy, but when Dona married Willy, The younger woman's disrespect and rudeness to Vicky made many readers dislike the "dowdy woman with impossible hats". Willy himself even asked Louise of Coburg (Belgium) to select's Dona's hats & clothes, that is how much he respects her.

[Janet Ashton]

It's astounding to me how a man, John Rohl, could spend most of his life researching and writing about a person he loathed and makes no apologies about his deep-seated dislike for Wilhelm II. In spite of his credentials as a historian, I find it implausible that his biography is untainted with his negative bias. It's unfortunate that such a pivotal figure in 20th century history as WII was remains largely cast in the shadows of the great war and the post period Anglo American spin on history.

It seems his deep-seated dislike is the consequence of the years of study - he's said as much in things he's written. I don't think he's the only biographer that's happened too; I can think of several examples of people who'e discovered they didn't really like their subjects (think of Nicolson and George V). I can also find that I am able to start studying someone with a neutral attitude or an inclination to be sympathetic, and found my feelings turn strongly to dislike when I know more.

Rohl is Anglo-German, so I don't think I'd characterise his approach as being in some way "Anglo-American". After all, the harshest critic of Germany's war aims was Fritz Fischer. Christopher Clark, who is selling far more books than Rohl at present, is notably more sympathetic to Wilhelm. In that sense, I don't think anyone who disagrees with Rohl has any reason to feel that Wilhelm is "overshadowed" by negative spin.

[HerrKaiser]

It's astounding to me how a man, John Rohl, could spend most of his life researching and writing about a person he loathed and makes no apologies about his deep-seated dislike for Wilhelm II. In spite of his credentials as a historian, I find it implausible that his biography is untainted with his negative bias. It's unfortunate that such a pivotal figure in 20th century history as WII was remains largely cast in the shadows of the great war and the post period Anglo American spin on history.

It seems his deep-seated dislike is the consequence of the years of study - he's said as much in things he's written. I don't think he's the only biographer that's happened too; I can think of several examples of people who'e discovered they didn't really like their subjects (think of Nicolson and George V). I can also find that I am able to start studying someone with a neutral attitude or an inclination to be sympathetic, and found my feelings turn strongly to dislike when I know more.

Rohl is Anglo-German, so I don't think I'd characterise his approach as being in some way "Anglo-American". After all, the harshest critic of Germany's war aims was Fritz Fischer. Christopher Clark, who is selling far more books than Rohl at present, is notably more sympathetic to Wilhelm. In that sense, I don't think anyone who disagrees with Rohl has any reason to feel that Wilhelm is "overshadowed" by negative spin.

What I meant by the "Anglo American spin on history" was the well-seated so-called victors view of the period up to 1918. I've found many of his commentaries to be transparently biased in ways similar to Massey's (particularly in Dreadnought).

Even the tone of Rohl's works on WII progress in angst and anger as one plods through the lengthy study. I agree with you that Rohl may have grown in his dislike, but that's his own emotion, not necessarily historical. And when we see this emotion skew his thinking, it suggests to me that he may well be putting forth false impressions.

[Kalafrana]

Philip Ziegler is another biographer who came to have very mixed feelings about his subject, to say the least. In his biography of Mountbatten he says he felt obliged to put a notice on his desk, saying 'Remember, he was a great man.'

I wonder what he came to think about the Duke of Windsor?

Ann

[HerrKaiser]

Philip Ziegler is another biographer who came to have very mixed feelings about his subject, to say the least. In his biography of Mountbatten he says he felt obliged to put a notice on his desk, saying 'Remember, he was a great man.'

I wonder what he came to think about the Duke of Windsor?

Ann

That would be a nice fireside chat! Ziegler is still alive so he could provide background.

The extent to which a historian or historical biographer goes down the path of "mixed feelings" about their subject is my concern. When that path turns their dissertations into an emotional perspective, it becomes a commercial piece and of questionable verisimilitude.

[Kalafrana]

I think a biographer needs to maintain objectivity, and tell the subject's story wie es wirklich war. There I are a Scylla and Charybdis of getting too fond of your subject on the one hand, and coming to hate them on the other. There are particular problems when the subject is still alive.

Ann

[Eric_Lowe]

One must also remember that Willy wasn't a favorite in the Press in England after the Kruger telegram. When you built up a great military strength, it can also be a forestall of war. King Edward VII hoped to circle Germany by diplomatic strategic alliances and force it to think twice before using that arsenal.