AA and the Russian Language

[AGRBear]

..[in part]...

I am not "pushing" the idea that AA was Anastasia.  I am arguing that AA was NOT Franziska Schanzkowska, whoever she was.

Please, please do your  best to remember this.

It is difficult to understand why anyone would think Penny is arguing that AA is GD Anastasia.  I think her words are very clear, she is NOT.

Like her,  I am curious to know who AA was.

Why AA refused to speak Russia can never be understood until we learn who she really was.  Untill then, we can only speculate.

Apparently, AA understood Russian and at times did speak Russian.  To what degree, only she knew, and, we can only speculate.

Evidently, Annie was curious enough or she wouldn't have started this thread.

Penny has given her evidence from the trial.

I don't have any evidence.  I never met the woman.  I don't have any evidence one way or the other.  In fact,  I don't recall ever  hearing her speak English or German or Russian in all the years she was in the news here in the USA.

AGRBear

[Annie]

It is difficult to understand why anyone would think Penny is arguing that AA is GD Anastasia.  I think her words are very clear, she is NOT.

Well, her words say that now, but other times have been different, and her intentions and attitude seem VERY different. Like, I could sit here and say, I have been to Venus, my words may say it, but proving it willl take a lot more.

Evidently, Annie was curious enough or she wouldn't have started this thread.

She started this thread to directly target me. If she only wanted to relay info, she could have done so without mentioning  my name. I've never seen anyone on any board target someone the way she does me (at least not among people who haven't already been banned)

 I don't recall ever  hearing her speak English or German or Russian in all the years she was in the news here in the USA.

AGRBear

I saw/heard her speak English many times on TV when I was growing up, and now I have the NOVA program on which she speaks in a very heavy accent which is neither English or American.

[Penny_Wilson]

Previous posts (unless you deleted them all) by you have stated you believed she 'probably was' Anastasia.

This NEVER happened, because this has NEVER been the case since I have been posting here.  

I can't read your mind so I don't know if you've changed it...

See, Annie?  This is why you irritate me so.  I have NOT changed my mind; I have NEVER said I thought AA was Anastasia -- yet here you have planted the seed that I DID at one time, and that I have now changed my mind.  

I predict you will also resurrect this exchange as some sort of proof the next time you try to say that I think AA was Anastasia.  But I'm on to you, and it is now my plan to challenge this continued assertion of yours at every turn, until you decide to stop it.  So it's up to you when this stops.

but I can't understand why anyone would become so vehement on this subject just to prove AA was not one anonymous person, but another I am not really buying that, you attitude seems to point to you still hoping to prove an AN connection. Of course I cannot prove that, but it seems that way to me the way you write, the things you post and the way you behave when someone questions you. That's what I'm going by.  

Then what you're "going by" is absolute, unadulterated horsesh*t.  I am completely sick to death of your insinuations and false accusations.  Stop it, Annie, and stick to the facts.  

As for my interest in the "Anna Anderson" mystery: You don't have to understand it, you don't have to "buy" it, you don't have to believe it -- but my interest in her is this: She was unique in the twentieth century -- I know of no-one who kept up such a long and healthy mystery -- and I would like to know who she was.  That's it.  I do not believe that she was Franziska Schanzkowska.  I did think that she was MORE LIKELY to have been Anastasia -- but that was before the DNA testing, which I have told you dozens of times that I accept.

If you cannot grasp the above, then I am sorry, but I can't help you any further.  If you cannot grasp the above, then I have to conclude that your obtuseness is purposeful and intended to cause trouble.

Rsskiya, you didn't do anything wrong. We are sniping at each other. However, I have yet to start a thread openly aimed at one person. Even if you want to get one message across you can still start a thread without going 'hey look at this so and so'- stating your case should be enough.

This thread is not "aimed" at a person.  It is meant as a response to an oft-repeated misconception -- and YOU are the one who oft-repeats it, so YOU were the one I asked for a response.  That's all.

And please don't start the garbage of telling someone HOW and WHEN to post.  It's not your job.  It's the FA's.

Back to the question:  Do you now concede that Anna Anderson spoke grammatical Russian?  Will you allow Olga Alexandrovna the last word on this issue, as you've allowed her the last on so many others?

[Mgmstl]

Penny thanks so much for those affadavits, very interesting, and yet it speaks so much to the misinformation on this case.  I am sure there are volumes more.  In fact it looks as we have our own case of disinformation/misinformation being spun and spread on this thread AGAIN.   All you can do is fight it with the truth.

One would think that actual court testimony would  make some people think before they post.  However that is not the case, as we all know.

What I find to be compelling is the testimony of Gillard
& Olga being refuted with their own answers, which shows that this case, then as even now on this thread is more about personal beliefs and agendas than it is about getting at the truth.

For some people the DNA issue answers their questions yet they cannot & willnot accept that others among us have more questions to be answered, and NOT ONE OF US has stated that we do not accept the DNA evidence that AA is not AN.  We have said we just don't fully believe that AA is FS.   So please Annie STOP twisting our words & statements.

I think that this complied with the affadavits of Erna Bucholz (Nurse at Dalldork) & Thea Malinowsky.  This evidence proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that AA did speak & understand Russian, and was able to translate from Russian into German.  Kind of strange for an illiterate Polish/Katchoubian peasant girl who stole away to read books in a field....It does make you wonder.

[Belochka]

I got this information from the trial transcripts.
Questioned by Judge Backen in Toronto, June 11, 1959

OA: She spoke a few sentences to Madame Gilliard, but would say no more.
Backen: And was her Russian grammatical?
OA: Yes.
Backen: She said no more in Russian other than a few sentences to Madame Gilliard?
OA: No.  She understood the language, as she answered questions posed to her in Russian in German but, despite my requests, she would not converse with any of us in Russian.

Source: Transcript, A. Anderson v. Barbara, Duchess of Mecklenburg, Oberlandesgericht-Hamburg, No. III, ZPO 139/67, Volume 38

Gilliard:

Questioned by Judge Werkmeister of the Hamburg Tribunal, 1 April, 1958

Gilliard: She said something to my wife.
Werkmeister: In what language?
Gilliard: In Russian.
Werkmeister: You heard the Plaintiff speak to your wife in Russian?
Gilliard: Only a sentence.
Werkmeister: But you heard this?
Gilliard: She spoke only one sentence, to my wife.  I do not consider that linguistic ability.

Hi Penny,

This is the first time I have read this court transcript. I have a few questions regarding the extract which you have presented here.


a. "OA: She spoke a few sentences to Madame Gilliard"

compare to:

b. "Gilliard: She spoke only one sentence, to my wife.  I do not consider that linguistic ability."

Was this variation in detail given by these two witnesses tested further in Court?

OA did not clearly state (in this transcript extract) that she personally heard Russian spoken in her presence, unless both OA and Madame Gilliard were together in the same room. This is unclear here.

A few lines further down OA does stipulate that only German was spoken in OA's presence.

My other questions are:

Are you able to provide a Court transcript which provides:

1. The specific sentence "she" addressed?

2. The precise Russian words that "she" used to reply?

The length of the query and its reply would not necessarily provide evidence of good linguistic usage, a fact which Gilliard correctlly alluded to.

The expression used by the speaker would indicate the education and social standing of the user, including the city where they learnt Russian. If the language was acquired outside of Russia, or was not the user's primary language, it would be quickly identified by an educated intellectual Russian native speaker from SPb of the day.

Comprehension of a language does not merit fluency in the language.

Were any of these dialectical issues addressed by the Court?

From what you kindly presented here, on balance it cannot not be read that "she" was fluent in Russian.

It could only be inferred that there was some form of understanding of the spoken language.

Finally,

Was "she" asked to write any random words in Russian before the Court?

Thanks for posting the Court Transcripts.

Your replies to these questions will be appreciated.

[Annie]

This NEVER happened, because this has NEVER been the case since I have been posting here.  

Oh yes it did, and even if the posts are deleted, I have witnesses who also saw them. I have talked to at least 3 other people who saw and recalled exactly the same posts, even before I mentioned them. There were several, this is one from last summer I distinctly remember and would swear to with my hand on a Bible in a lie detector test:

"..if she was Grand Duchess Anastasia, and it is my belief probably that she was.."


also:

"...she was NOT FS, she MAY have been Grand Duchess Anastasia.."

Then I made a quote about how she bit her lip to look more like Anastasia, since her lips were too full, and Anastasia frequently bit her lip. Your reply:

"Maybe she smiled like that because she WAS Anastasia  "

You know Penny, I also have relatives who hate my guts because I have too good a memory and I can pull up things they hoped were forgotten

[Annie]

This NEVER happened, because this has NEVER been the case since I have been posting here.  


See, Annie?  This is why you irritate me so.  I have NOT changed my mind; I have NEVER said I thought AA was Anastasia -- yet here you have planted the seed that I DID at one time, and that I have now changed my mind.  

I predict you will also resurrect this exchange as some sort of proof the next time you try to say that I think AA was Anastasia.  But I'm on to you, and it is now my plan to challenge this continued assertion of yours at every turn, until you decide to stop it.  So it's up to you when this stops.


Then what you're "going by" is absolute, unadulterated horsesh*t.  I am completely sick to death of your insinuations and false accusations.  Stop it, Annie, and stick to the facts.  

As for my interest in the "Anna Anderson" mystery: You don't have to understand it, you don't have to "buy" it, you don't have to believe it -- but my interest in her is this: She was unique in the twentieth century -- I know of no-one who kept up such a long and healthy mystery -- and I would like to know who she was.  That's it.  I do not believe that she was Franziska Schanzkowska.  I did think that she was MORE LIKELY to have been Anastasia -- but that was before the DNA testing, which I have told you dozens of times that I accept.

Well actually I CAN resurrect your direct quote right here, in this post! The thread cannot be bumped, I had to copy and paste:

Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #81 on: Jul 12th, 2004, 11:33pm »
Penny_Wilson wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One thing I can tell you absolutely and positively is that Gleb Botkin was no con-man.  He truly and strongly believed in Anastasia Manahan, and he never wavered in this belief.  

If she was Anastasia -- and I myself believe it likely that she was -- then Gleb and his sister Tatiana were her two truest friends. And if she wasn't Anastasia, then the Botkins were still her truest friends -- and you do them a grave disservice by suspecting them in this manner.  Belief in Anastasia Manahan does not equate with criminal intention -- especially as this "criminal endeavor" made none of them into rich people -- quite the opposite, in fact.

And it's also a matter of fact that neither Gleb nor his sister "lived in the palace for years."  In fact, the only member of the Botkin family with regular entree to the palace was Dr Eugene -- and his involvement with and devotion to the Imperial Family was a point of contention with Mrs Botkin, and put a strain on their marriage.

Gleb was also not "with" the family in Tobolsk.  He lived in the Kornilov House across the road, was never allowed into the house, and was even stopped from waving to the girls from the street.

So the Botkin children's contact with the Imperial children is something that is often exaggerated.



Here is the link to the actual posting, since I can't bump it or quote it since it was locked (which I guess is why you didn't get to delete it like the others )


http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1075191962;start=75


You go on with 'stop it Annie get your facts straight' and call my accusations 'horsesh*t' yet you aren't fooling anyone, several people clearly saw your posts and remember them, and many have commented on your belief, like this post from the same thread:

Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
« Reply #116 on: Jul 30th, 2004, 6:55pm »  
IlyaBorisovich wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Penny,

Just out of curiosity, did your research for FOTR have any effect on your belief that AA could have really been AN?  Was your belief reinforced or eroded in any way?  I've assumed from your posts here that you do believe that AA was AN, but I apologize if I've read that into what you've said.  I was convinced that there was no way AA could've been AN after the DNA evidence was revealed, but after reading your posts and considering their source, I'm beginning to have some nagging little thoughts on the subject.  I'd appreciate your sharing your insights on that, if you wouldn't mind.

Thanks,
Ilya

There are other incidents too, if I can find them (and if they're still there) I also remember an exchange you had with rsskiya a couple months ago concerning your belief and past quotes by you on the subject.

So you DID say it, I am NOT a liar, and I also think there's a good chance you probably do still believe it, or are at least trying to prove it. Either way, here is your proof of what you said.

[helenazar]

Penny,  

I am not one of the "witnesses" that Annie mentions above, nor one of the three people that Annie says she spoke to, but I also clearly remember you saying things like this (most of them have now been deleted). Up until recently, it certainly seemed that you were constantly arguing (or at least strongly implying) that AA was likely to have been AN. I remember I once even directly asked you if you actually disbelieved the DNA evidence - otherwise why would you feel that AA was probably AN. Which you never replied to because that was the time when you got angry about something (I don't remember about what but it had to do with AA) and left the forum (the first time).  

I have to admit that I was very startled when recently you suddenly started saying that you now accept the DNA evidence and believe that AA wasn't AN. But I am very surprised that you now say that you never thought that AA was Anastasia. With all due respect, your posts from the past (now gone) until recently, strongly indicated otherwise.  


Helen

[Annie]

Penny,  
 
I am not one of the "witnesses" that Annie mentions above, nor one of the three people that Annie says she spoke to, but I also clearly remember you saying things like this (most of them have now been deleted). Up until recently, it certainly seemed that you were constantly arguing (or at least strongly implying) that AA was likely to have been AN. I remember I once even directly asked you if you actually disbelieved the DNA evidence - otherwise why would you feel that AA was probably AN. Which you never replied to because that was the time when you got angry about something (I don't remember about what but it had to do with AA) and left the forum (the first time).  
 
I have to admit that I was very startled when recently you suddenly started saying that you now accept the DNA evidence and believe that AA wasn't AN. But I am very surprised that you now say that you never thought that AA was Anastasia. With all due respect, your posts from the past (now gone) until recently, strongly indicated otherwise.  

 
Helen

No, Helen was not one of the people I was thinking of, but I knew many other people on the forum had to have seen the same things I did.

Even just recently, I recall you (Penny) being called on the subject by someone asking 'tell me you don't still believe she could have been AN!' and you did not deny it.

So Penny, if you have changed your mind, fine (though I will always wonder) but don't claim you NEVER posted it, because you did.

[AGRBear]

Penny's responce was way way back in July of 2004.

We've had quite an education on DNA since then....  Some very good posts which have convince many, if there was no conspiracy, that the DNA tests give proof that Anna Anderson couldn't have been GD Anastasia.

We've talked about various people having changed their minds because of the DNA.

If yesterday, Penny has stated that the DNA has been proof then she's changed her mind, like others have, then she's changed her mind.

The last time I looked,  people, especially women [isn't that right, guys], are allowed to CHANGE THEIR MINDS.

With a schedule as busy as Penny's,  and if she's like I am,   who remembers last week let alone last July.  

The point is:  SHE"S CHANGED HER MIND.

By the time we're given all this new information from Penny,  others, also, may change their minds about AA being FS.  Is this what so many of you are afraid of happening?  Why?  You keep telling us that you don't care as long as people aren't trying to convince you that AA was GD Anastasia.  So far, I haven't seen anyone on this thread trying to convince anyone that AA was GD Anastasia.  So far, all I see is people trying to convince others that Penny once indicated she thought AA was more convincing to having been GD Anastasia than she was convincing to having been FS.   But is this all you're trying to do?  Or, are you hoping this little campaign causes Penny to have another flare up and leaves, but, this time, you hope she doesn't come back.  Is the truth of what she writes such a threat?  No, I can't believe this of Annie.   And, I don't want to believe this of  anyone else. But one thing is certain, this bickering has GOT TO STOP.

One never needs to be afraid of the truth.  And,  I do hope that is what ALL OF US are hoping to find.

Back to the topic.

AGRBear

[helenazar]

...people, especially women, are allowed to CHANGE THEIR MINDS.

Bear, that's a rather sexist comment    . For the sake of our young and impressionable readers, we must stay politically correct: men change their minds just as much as women do!  

[AGRBear]

Is that right?  I'll have to have a conversation with my hubby on this new revelation you've just presented me  .  Don't think he'll agree, however.

AGRBear

[Annie]

Penny's responce was way way back in July of 2004.



If yesterday, Penny has stated that the DNA has been proof then she's changed her mind, like others have, then she's changed her mind.

Bear, there were much more recent comments than that, but as of now I can't find them. If I do I will resurrect them, but I am quite sure she has deleted them.  

This is from Nov.,  declaring she MAY have been Anastasia, and it should still be considered:

Re: AA and FS
« Reply #89 on: Nov 9th, 2004, 2:31pm »  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
on Nov 9th, 2004, 1:50pm, rskkiya wrote:

The tone of your most recents comments and responses to those here who are merely curious about information, has rather stunned me... I now must seriously "reevaluate" everything that I have read of yours.


Penny_Wilson wrote:

Why?  Because I finally reached the end of my patience with being misrepresented and accused of things I've never actually said?  Oh well...  

ONCE MORE WITH FEELING:  As Greg stated yesterday in a post, our research in this case is focused on Franziska Schanzkowska.  I do NOT believe that Fraulein Unbekannt was Franziska Schanzkowska.  I think that Fraulein Unbekannt was someone else -- and that someone MAY have been GD Anastasia.  I have said before that I do not think that there will ever be conclusive proof one way or the other; but until better answers are found, I consider her still "on the table," and a fit and proper topic for discussion.  

I have the same reservations about the 1994 DNA tests that Greg has expressed in his post.  These reservations, coupled with the non-forensic evidence of the case, leads me to keep my mind open on the Anastasia question. If this means that any of you guys want to put me against the wall with Peter Kurth, then so be it.  I consider him fine and worthy company.   But I can't for the life of me see what the problem is with an open mind -- and I don't see why an open mind in this particular case calls for a "re-evaluation" of everything else I've ever written.  Seems an extreme response to me...

« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2004, 2:46pm by Penny_Wilson »


The actual thread, once again, closed:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1098396821;start=75

This is the reason I am dragging these posts up:

The bottom line is, she posted that I was lying and should 'stop' my 'horsesh*t' because she never posted that, but she did, and that is my point, not what she currently believes or her right to change her mind. I was defending my own personal integrity as not being a liar.

One never needs to be afraid of the truth.  And,  I do hope that is what ALL OF US are hoping to find.

Bear, when will 'the truth' ever be enough, ever satisfy you, or anyone? I have become frustrated here on this forum that for some people there will never be a real 'truth' if it contradicts what they would rather see, and that for some, nothing will ever stop their hunger for this mystery. As I've said before about 'the truth', we can't all have our own truths, because there is only one real truth on each historical mystery, and we can't change that.

[helenazar]

..are you hoping this little campaign causes Penny to have another flare up and leaves, but, this time, you hope she doesn't come back.  Is the truth of what she writes such a threat?  

Bear, I take serious offense to this statement you just added. Please do not accuse anyone of campaigning to get Penny off the boards - it is simply uncalled for and you are the one who is instigating bickering by posting something like this. I would be happy to delete this post if you delete this and any other inflammatory statements you just posted. Thank you.

[Forum Admin]

This is coming from NUMEROUS Forum users... I awoke this morning to the single largest number of emails and private messages about the Forum EVER, and all save one were begging me to END this personal snipe fest between Penny and Annie.
Ladies, what more can I say than the USERS themselves are asking you BOTH to stop. I concur. Your fellow members have spoken.

FA