Searches for a young woman around Yekaterinburg

[Erichek]

Hi all,

this most probably has been discussed, but does any one know whether the story that after July 17th 1918 Red soldiers were found searching the city and beyond (trains) for a young woman (escaped Grand Duchess?) is actually true? What are the facts behind this story?
The book 'The file on the Tsar'  mentions this.


Thank you.

Erichek

[Annie]

Hi all,

this most probably has been discussed, but does any one know whether the story that after July 17th 1918 Red soldiers were found searching the city and beyond (trains) for a young woman (escaped Grand Duchess?) is actually true? What are the facts behind this story?
The book 'The file on the Tsar'  mentions this.


Thank you.

Ericek

Don't believe everything you read in that book, much of it is now historically proven wrong and much more of it is just theories. From what some have said, and it makes sense to me, they were trying to pretend to look for her because they found out later that due to the German treaty they were not supposed to kill the "princesses of German blood" and they already had, so they had to make it look like they were still alive. Even in the NY Times, it was reported only the Tsar was killed. It was a long time before anyone knew it was the whole family. The ironic thing is, people who want to latch onto the escape stories (and I used to be one of them) use things like this as evidence someone got away, but in reality it was the Bolsheviks staging an act that they did so the world wouldn't know they had murdered the entire family! They were trying to hide the fact that they were DEAD, not alive!

And this is not as strange as you may think. The testimony of the assassins who killed Ella, KRs sons and Prince Paley said they went back to town and rang a bell, declaring the prisoners had been 'taken away by unknown persons' so no one would know they killed them. For awhile, this led to searches, and a lot of cruel false hope for relatives. There probably would have been claimants too if the bodies had not been found.

[Penny_Wilson]

Don't believe everything you read in that book, much of it is now historically proven wrong and much more of it is just theories. From what some have said, and it makes sense to me, they were trying to pretend to look for her because they found out later that due to the German treaty they were not supposed to kill the "princesses of German blood" and they already had, so they had to make it look like they were still alive. Even in the NY Times, it was reported only the Tsar was killed. It was a long time before anyone knew it was the whole family. The ironic thing is, people who want to latch onto the escape stories (and I used to be one of them) use things like this as evidence someone got away, but in reality it was the Bolsheviks staging an act that they did so the world wouldn't know they had murdered the entire family! They were trying to hide the fact that they were DEAD, not alive!

Please don't present your pet theories as fact.  You cannot support this with any actual evidence, and you know it.  Erichek deserves a complete answer to his question, so I'll give him one:

"The File on the Tsar" is a book that is out-dated.  The authors were writing with the information that was available in the mid-70s -- just like Bob Massie, who wrote "Nicholas and Alexandra" in the 60s.  Mistakes were definitely made in both books, though they could not have been identified at the time because of the paucity of information available from the Soviet Union.  

The difference between Massie's "Nicholas and Alexandra" and S&M's "The File on the Tsar" is this: Massie wrote a narrative history, S&M wrote and investigatory work.  In an investigatory work, you take bigger chances, and theorize on a larger scope.  So it turned out that S&M's book did fail in several major ideas. HOWEVER -- and this is a big "however" -- there IS information in "The File of the Tsar" that is valid today, such as the work Summers and Mangold performed on the topic of cremation and its related forensic areas.

Another area where the were right was the subject you brought up in this thread:  There was indeed an extensive search for missing members of the Imperial Family, and this is borne out by testimony from several disparate sources, including Princess Helen of Serbia and her secretary, Serge Smirnov, who recounted his experiences with this search in "Autour l'assassinat des Grands Ducs...".    

"The File on the Tsar" should certainly be read with a careful eye, but not necessarily a jaundiced one.

[AGRBear]

Please don't present your pet theories as fact.  You cannot support this with any actual evidence, and you know it.  Erichek deserves a complete answer to his question, so I'll give him one:

"The File on the Tsar" is a book that is out-dated.  The authors were writing with the information that was available in the mid-70s -- just like Bob Massie, who wrote "Nicholas and Alexandra" in the 60s.  Mistakes were definitely made in both books, though they could not have been identified at the time because of the paucity of information available from the Soviet Union.  

The difference between Massie's "Nicholas and Alexandra" and S&M's "The File on the Tsar" is this: Massie wrote a narrative history, S&M wrote and investigatory work.  In an investigatory work, you take bigger chances, and theorize on a larger scope.  So it turned out that S&M's book did fail in several major ideas. HOWEVER -- and this is a big "however" -- there IS information in "The File of the Tsar" that is valid today, such as the work Summers and Mangold performed on the topic of cremation and its related forensic areas.

Another area where the were right was the subject you brought up in this thread:  There was indeed an extensive search for missing members of the Imperial Family, and this is borne out by testimony from several disparate sources, including Princess Helen of Serbia and her secretary, Serge Smirnov, who recounted his experiences with this search in "Autour l'assassinat des Grands Ducs...".    

"The File on the Tsar" should certainly be read with a careful eye, but not necessarily a jaundiced one.

A person also needs to realize that when the Whites entered Ekaterinburg,  they were not  there to rescue Nicholas II and his family.

There was a war going on between Whites and Reds and at this time neither were interested in placing Nicholas II back on the throne.  True, there were many who remained loyal to Nicholas II, however, they were  the minority in 1918.

Anyway, the Whites entered Ekaterinburg a few days after Nicholas II was said to have been executed and were told that  Alexandra, the daughters and Alexei had been taken elsewhere.

All kind of false information ["red herring" and "white herring"] spread from Ekaterinburg to the rest of the world from that point forward, to the present and probably will continue....

But why would the CHEKA  [pre-rummer of the KGB] spread a rumor that Anstastia and Alexei had escaped?  Saying someone "escaped" and saying they had been taken to a secret place were entirely different and there was not reason to say someone "escaped" if they had been taken away under Red guards.  

And, yes,  there were many eye wittnesses who saw Red soldiers searching woods, trains, villages, etc. for missing Romanovs.

Reports of "escape" or  "we saw Alexandera and three of her daughters in Perm" were absent in the Sokolov's report. He was the one who ended up being the so-called final word on the Whites investigation of the events of the night of 16/17 July 1918 in the Impatiev House.  But not absent in Summers' and Mangold's book.  And, like Penny said, there has been a lot more discovered by her and Greg for their book and what they hope to publish.

Why would Sokolov's report omit some valuable information?  Many think it was because the information wasn't true and merely fabrication by the Bolsheviks.  But, if you dig a little deeper you discover that it wasn't in the best interest of the Whites to reveal all of the truth of what happen.  It was best, the general's [Dieterikh and others]  give evidence to  their soldiers which told everyone that  the "bloody Reds" not only killed Nicholas II but they "cold bloodiedly" killed his wife, his four daughters, Alexei, and their friends.  Why was it in the Whites' best interest?  They wanted to stir up the emotions of their men who were weary of war.  

My thoughts are:  Somewhere in the middle of all of the information, be it true or fabrications, we can find what really happen.  So,  not reading old books like Summers and Mangold is not allowing yourself the opportunity to learn information which you will not read in other books.

AGRBear

[Elisabeth]

Anyway, the Whites entered Ekaterinburg a few days after Nicholas II was said to have been executed and were told that  Alexandra, the daughters and Alexei had been taken elsewhere.

But why would the CHEKA  [pre-rummer of the KGB] spread a rumor that Anstastia and Alexei had escaped?  Saying someone "escaped" and saying they had been taken to a secret place were entirely different and there was not reason to say someone "escaped" if they had been taken away under Red guards.  
AGRBear

Bear, it's my understanding that most of the reports out of Ekaterinburg assumed that Alexei had been executed with his father. I don't recall any contemporary reports or rumors that Alexei had escaped or was even missing.

Only Anastasia was reported to be missing, and the reports are conflicting as to when precisely this event occurred. According to Helen of Serbia, there were searches for Anastasia on the very night of the murders, July 16-17, 1918. However, according to the other relevant witnesses interviewed during the White investigations, such as Dr. Utkin, Anastasia only went missing after she and her sisters and mother had supposedly been transferred to Perm (as we know now, this transfer never actually took place - Alexandra and at least most of her daughters were already dead).

These are very contradictory accounts that are difficult to reconcile with the existing evidence as we know it now.  

[AGRBear]

I can't remember at the moment, but there was someone who's son was nearly taken away from him because the Red soldier thought he looked like the Tsarvich [ Alexei].  

This means that they were, also, looking for Alexei.

Now, I hope I can find this source because I don't have the slightest idea where I read it.

AGRBear

[Annie]

Please don't present your pet theories as fact.  You cannot support this with any actual evidence, and you know it.  

Well, I did see the actual evidence here posted once by FA. That's where I got it.

[AGRBear]

There has been many times I have defended Summers and Mangold so  FA  could have made a remark  on dozens of different threads.

To FA and others,  I continue to defend and agree their work was done accurately with the information they had at the time and yes  a lot of it is, now, outdated.

Back to the topic:

Hi all,

this most probably has been discussed, but does any one know whether the story that after July 17th 1918 Red soldiers were found searching the city and beyond (trains) for a young woman (escaped Grand Duchess?) is actually true? What are the facts behind this story?
The book 'The file on the Tsar'  mentions this.


Thank you.

Erichek

...[in part]...

... According to Helen of Serbia, there were searches for Anastasia on the very night of the murders, July 16-17, 1918.
...  

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

THE FILE ON THE TSAR by Summers and Mangold p. 343:

"The best confirmation that the Bolsheviks really were looking for Grand Duchess Anastasia comes from an impeccable, independen source.  The Swedish Red Cross delegate in Russia, Count Carl Bonde, was traveling through the area at this time by train.  Years later he wrote a letter about an interruption on that journey:

'In my capacity as the chief of Swedish Red Cross mission in Siberia in 1918, I travelled in a private  railway-car.  At some place, the name of which has escaped my memory, the train was stopped and searched in order to find the Grand Duchess Anastasia, daughter of Tsar Nicholas II."

Far as I know, this statement and others like it have not been proven to be fabrications.

AGRBear

[Forum Admin]

I belive Annie was referring to the German exchanges with Moscow shortly after the murders, which I posted in another thread in December:

Exactly. a Mr. Ritzler, member of Count Mirbach's mission showed Sokolov the following documents from the german Govt. files:
1. From the german Mission in Moscow to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, on July 19, 1918:
"Must we repeat our most catagorical official protests on the subject of the safe-guarding of the Empress, as she is a german Princess? To extend these protests as to the Tsarevich would probably be dangerous as the monarchists would be inclined to bring them to the forefront."
 
2. From the german Mission in Moscow to the  Minister of Foreign Affairs, July 20, 1916:
Yesterday, I told Radeck and Vorovski the the whole world would most severely judge the execution of the Tsar and the Imperial Ambassador wants them to be on guard most catagorically against any such attempt they might continue to commit. Vorovski replied that the Tsar had been shot, by Czechoslovakians who were not under this control. Radek expressed the opinion personally that if we showed some particular interest in the women in the Imperial Family of german blood, we should perhaps give them free passage to leave Russia. Perhaps they might suceed in delivering the Empress and Tsarevich as compensation in the question of the batallion, in the name of humanity." (the germans wanted a batallion to enter Moscow, the Bolsheviks refused, this was an attempt at bargaining with them.)
3. Mininster of Foreign Affairs to the german Charge d'Affairs in Moscow, July 20:
"Agreed to the protests in favor of the Imperial Family. Busche"
 
4. german Mission to Moscow to Minister of Foreign Affairs, July 23:
"I have taken all necessary steps in favor of the Tsarina and Princesses of german Blood (ital in original), by insisting about the impression created in public opinion by the murder of the Tsar.  Tchicherin listened to these protests in silence. Ritzler"
 
Don't forget, the Bolsheviks already KNEW the whole family was dead by this point.

[AGRBear]

There is an old saying: The Germans always knew what was happening in Russia before the Russians did.  

The Germans had agents in Ekaterinburg before and after the 16/17 of July 1918.

I'm sure the Germans reported to Berlin what was happening a minute after anything happened.

Remember that grapevine I was talking about.  Most of Ekaterinburg already knew something had happen and that bodies were being buried at the Four Brothers Mine.  This was the reason Yurovsky gave to rebury the bodies.

So, who do we believe?  The Germans who wanted the German princesses out safe and sound and seem to believe they were still alive up to the 23rd of July  or the Moscow Soviets who tell us later that they were not telling the truth about the family being alive after the 17th of July?

AGRBear

[Annie]

Thanks FA for posting the info!

Bear, even other parts of Russia didn't know about the family. Felix Yussoupov wrote that the day the news came, they didn't believe it because there had been so many rumors, and continued with a planned picnic! (and remember the Germans held the Crimea at that time and they didn't know either) Russia was huge and disjointed because of the revolution. Not everyone knew everything right away, not even in Moscow. The prestigious New York Times even got the news wrong, believing the reports only the Tsar was killed and the rest of the family was moved to a place of safety. Even King George V didn't know, and was unsure until Victoria Milford-Haven asked him to do research to find out.

Speaking of thinking 'outside the box' this is a good one to put 2 and 2 together- they didn't want the Germans to know the GD's were dead, so they plant stories they were alive. By making them 'missing' it bought them time to come up with something else, or as it turned out, the Germans lost the war and none of it mattered. But it did at the time, that's why the stories circulated, just as they did after the murders of Ella and the others (by admission of the assassins themselves)

One more thought on this: IF the Bolsheviks didn't want anyone to know a GD had escaped, the LAST thing they'd do is run around broadcasting it! There are several reports of these alleged searches, all mentioning a GD. If they didn't want this known they could have made searches without telling what they were searching for. So it would make more sense they were doing/saying what they wanted heard and retold, which feeds right into the planting stories of them being alive theory.

[Merrique]

I have a question.I know Alix and Ella were considered German Princesses.But I was wondering if OTMA were considered German Princesses as well?

[Annie]

I'm sure they counted as 'princesses of German blood'

[AGRBear]

Annie, I think you've missed my point so I must not have explained it clear enough.

The Germans were in Ekaterinburg.  They knew what was happening.

In fact, the Germans had a plot to rescue Nicholas II and the others on or about the 16th of July.

These German agents would have gotten word to Berlin immediately about who was executed, who was not and who was missing.  

As for the soldiers saying they were looking for GD Anastasia and Alexei,  and, you thinking it was easy to have kept the secret, well, this, also, proves my point.  Secrets are impossible to keep.  And a bunch of soldiers certainly weren't capable of keeping such a secret when they felt important having been chosen to do such an important duty.

I'm not sure why anyone would doubt these eye wittnesses and their claims of these searches.  Is there something we should know about these eye wittnesses which  causes  doubts about their truthfullness?

AGRBear