Searches for a young woman around Yekaterinburg

[griffin]

I realize on the diplomatic front they were playing games with the Germans in regard to the fate of Alix, Ella and OTMA, and I am convinced the Perm stories were to confuse white investigators, but if the stories about the searches for Anastasia in specific are true it seems kind of odd that they would single her out as a show for the Germans.

[Annie]

I don't think I missed any point at all. Even if there were Germans in town, they weren't the ones they were worried about, as they didn't know about the diplomatic stuff right away and when they did it was too late. And did anyone specificallyask for Anastasia and Alexei by name? I thought the story was just 'the grand duchess'?

[AGRBear]

What do you mean the CHEKA wasn't worried about the Germans?  They were more worried about the Germans than the Whites because the Germans were there to rescue the IF and others.
In fact, there are reports that the Germans were to have rescued the IF on the or about the 16th of July 1918.

The Germans were not playing games, unlike many of the other rescuers who failed, and, they had plans for escape.

AGRBear

[griffin]

The Germans were not playing games

Was this directed at me?
If it was, I didn't mean the Germans were playing games, I meant the Ural Soviet and the Bolsheviks were because they didn't want to admit what happened to the women of the IF to the Germans.

[AGRBear]

Sorry Griffin, I wasn't referring to your words although it appears that I was.  Sorry if it sounded like I was.  And, yes, you're right, the CHEKA, the Ural Soviets and the Moscow Soviets were "playing games".

I think their game was to keep the truth from the world about what happen that night in the Impatiev House, but I'm not so sure the truth was that they had executed Alexandra, the girls, Alexei, the others that night.  



AGRBear

[griffin]

I think their game was to keep the truth from the world about what happen that night in the Impatiev House, but I'm not so sure the truth was that they had executed Alexandra, the girls, Alexei, the others that night.

I agree, I might come to accept that as the truth,someday but right now there are to many loose ends for me.

[Denise]

I agree, I might come to accept that as the truth,someday but right now there are to many loose ends for me.

Ditto.  There are just so many questions!!  

My husband (the statistician) has a coworker who is European, and he was discussing our statistical questions with him.  Dieter said based on what he knows, if he were to choose between the scientific/statistical information about the families death and the social science research, he would take that, because the Bolsheviks were mean, sneaky, nasty and not to be trusted.  So apparently, when a statistician tells me not to trust the evidence, I am going to dig a little deeper into the other information out there!

[Sian_Turner]

There is an interesting note in Peter Kurth's book relating to evidence which would have been produced had AA agreed to a further court case after the Hamburg decision.  PK states "The majority of witnesses were set to depose about the peace mission of hte Grand Duke of Hesse to Russia and about the escape of the Tsar's daughter ... one of the witnesses to the latter had been hte mistress of Peter Ermakov, a leading member of the Ural Regional Soviety in Ekaterinberg ..."  P433.

[Elisabeth]

There is an interesting note in Peter Kurth's book relating to evidence which would have been produced had AA agreed to a further court case after the Hamburg decision.  PK states "The majority of witnesses were set to depose about the peace mission of hte Grand Duke of Hesse to Russia and about the escape of the Tsar's daughter ... one of the witnesses to the latter had been hte mistress of Peter Ermakov, a leading member of the Ural Regional Soviety in Ekaterinberg ..."  P433.

Well, the problem with that witness is immediately apparent - she's the mistress of a leading Bolshevik, and hardly likely to share information that would incriminate her lover in a mass murder involving women and children.

But to get back to these "sightings" of Anastasia - not reports, or searches, but the actual so-called sightings of the girl claimed to be Anastasia - again, they all happened in and around Perm, not Ekaterinburg. So in order to accept that Anastasia escaped from the Bolsheviks (this according to Utkin and the others was in September 1918), you also have to accept that she and her mother and sisters were first transferred to Perm in July 1918. We know from the evidence of the grave in Pig's Meadow that this didn't happen.

[Penny_Wilson]

Well, the problem with that witness is immediately apparent - she's the mistress of a leading Bolshevik, and hardly likely to share information that would incriminate her lover in a mass murder involving women and children.

Former mistress.  At that time living in the West and several thousand miles from Peter Ermakov.  And in any case, he was hardly hiding his light under a bushel, was he?  He was loud and proud about his participation in the murders, giving interviews, and even camp-fire talks to Young Pioneers.

[AGRBear]

Well, the problem with that witness is immediately apparent - she's the mistress of a leading Bolshevik, and hardly likely to share information that would incriminate her lover in a mass murder involving women and children.

But to get back to these "sightings" of Anastasia - not reports, or searches, but the actual so-called sightings of the girl claimed to be Anastasia - again, they all happened in and around Perm, not Ekaterinburg. So in order to accept that Anastasia escaped from the Bolsheviks (this according to Utkin and the others was in September 1918), you also have to accept that she and her mother and sisters were first transferred to Perm in July 1918. We know from the evidence of the grave in Pig's Meadow that this didn't happen.

The problem is, all the eye witnesses of the execution were Bolsheviks so how do we pick and choose which Bolshevik we're going to believe or not believe?  

The  witnesses in regards to Reds searching for Anastasia and Alexei were not Bolsheviks.

I'm not sure where the various searches on the trains took place.  

And, yes, a lot of the reports of people seeing Alexandera and her daughters was in and around Perm which is understandable since the Whites had pushed the Bolsheviks out of Ekaterinuburg to Perm.

AGRBear

[Sian_Turner]

I also seem to remember that (and I think this was from FOTT) bolshevick soldiers were seen running around Ekaterinburg shortly before they moved out, tearing down notices threatening anyone found harbouring a grand duchess with death, (am I right on this Penny?), also that one of these notices was in existence until the late 1920's.  I raised this point in another discussion but it strikes me as rather important that the bolshevicks felt this to be an appropriate use of troops at a time of serious trouble for them.

[AGRBear]

I've seen one of these posters used by the Bolsheviks when they were hunting down a person.  It resembled our "Wanted Dead Or Alive" posters used in the USA during our cowboy days.

AGRBear

[griffin]

I've seen one of these posters used by the Bolsheviks when they were hunting down a person.  It resembled our "Wanted Dead Or Alive" posters used in the USA during our cowboy days.

Really? Did someone keep some of them or what?

[AGRBear]

There is always someone who is a saver.  

AGRBear