Author Topic: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children  (Read 113378 times)

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etonexile

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2005, 10:11:40 PM »
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Couldn't find anything on Simeon Samsonov.

Wilson and King on p. 54 mention a General Alexander Samsonov's Second Imperial Army marching into the forests at Tenenberg where they "were mowed down by enemy artillery".... Samsonov was so "humilated that he rode off into the woods and shot himself".

AGRBear


Poor General Samsanov....The best seemed to either die early in the war...or to take their lives as gentlemen....by 1918...only the scum of the army were left....

Maria_Pavlovna

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2005, 02:52:57 PM »

Nicholas was faithful to his wife,  I don't believe that someone like Nicholas ( a sweet gentleman) get some girl  pregnant. All though before his marriage he was young. I'm guessing 20% chance of Nicholas having any bastard children. In my opinion NO!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Maria_Pavlovna »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2005, 06:44:52 PM »
In those days, the men kept telling the women that it was important that the young men "sow their wild seed" so when it came time for marriage, the man could settle down and be a "real" family man.

From what I understand,  Nicholas II, before he was married, had a fling or two or three....  He was, afterall, a young man of his times.  By the time he took Mathilda Kschessinska as his lover in 1890-1 he was 22.  Who knows how many lovers he had between the ages of 17 to 22-3.

Because there are really no stories known about other lovers, I assume, he wasn't overly active in this part of his life or he was very very descret.

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Konstantine

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2005, 11:04:19 PM »
What people have to remember here is the fact that the Russian Monarchy was, even from the very begining, an overwhelmingly christian monarchy.  And this was not just symbolic; it effected every aspect of a Tzars life,from the decision making process on down to family life, especially in the case of Tsar Nicholas II.  And to say he was a man of the times, with the implication being that he must have done the sort of things a politician of today might have done in his youth,is really doing him a diservice. The other members of the royal family may have not lived according to the same high moral standards(they also were not expected to), but I think thats one of main reasons why both Tsar Nicholas, and his family, stood out from the rest of the nobility. It's also worth noting that Tsar Nicholas rarely let his children come in any contact with the rest of his family, outside of family gatherings and social events, because of their lack of disipline and morals.
What tends to be overlooked these days, and is crucial to really understanding who these people were, is that holding a position of leadership back in those times was never taken lightly by a Monarch no matter what country or religion the ruler was brought up in.   And because of  how close of a relationship the Orthodox Church had with  the Russian Monarchy, this strict moral code was ingrained in them from early childhood.  In the case of an heir to the throne, such as Nicholas, any deviation from this would have been sorted out and set aside early on in life. So its not a matter of "could there have been an illegitimate son?", its a matter of, would he have had a sexual relationship with someone he was not married to, given the fact that he was a devout Christian both before AND after his marraige to Alexandra(back then being a devout christian meant you actually abided by the law's of the church).  

This may sound naive given the times we live in, but just because he was involved with another woman before marriage,  does not mean he was involved sexually, and there is nothing about his character that has ever suggested otherwise.

 There is a reason why there has never been a Bill Clinton-esque Tsar throughout the history of Russia, and it has to be understood that there never could have been.  

Finelly

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2005, 12:56:33 AM »
I would imagine that Mathilda K was the only person N had an affair with, if he told Alix about her and nobody else.

This doesn't mean that he didn't have one-night flings.  His diaries do reveal some pretty drunken episodes with his pals, and it would not be unreasonable to think that women were involved.

There's a difference between a mistress for whom you buy a house and pay for her living expenses and a woman you sleep with only once or twice.

The idea that there has never been a "Clinton-like" Tsar due to christian orthodox values is simply wrong.  Nicholas' grandfather kept a mistress in an apt above the floor on which the Empress lived.  Tsar Alexander was quite the womanizer.  Catherine the Great was an adulteress.  And those are only the ones I can think of off the top of my head!

Konstantine

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2005, 05:18:47 AM »
Getting a little drunk with some friends is not equivalent to having sex a number times with someone he barely knew, I dont care how you look at.
Were not talking about events that took place 10 years ago in a cheap hotel.   People so often seem to have this idea of historical figures that more often than not, reflects the morals and behavior you might see in a made for tv movie instead of reality.
First of all, Ive heard those storys of Alexannder and
his father, but I have yet to see anything that could be considered more than just a theary.
Second, Catherine was not a Tsar, you had to be a male for that.
Last but not least, let me know if you think of any more Bill Clinton type tsars, but because I honestly dont think you'll find any.

bluetoria

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2005, 05:58:51 AM »
Brendan, I agree with you. As I understood it, Alexander III virtually pushed Matilda K. into Nicholas' arms (as, I suppose, fathers almost expected their sons to take lovers before they married - Prince Albert being the exception). The fact that Nicholas told Alix about Matilda, surely suggests he had no other lovers besides her.

Finelly

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2005, 08:39:18 AM »
It is not a rumor that N's grandfather had a mistress with whom he had several children.  He married her after the Empress died, and she became a Princess.

As for Alexander II, there is plenty of evidence of his affairs.

One can be a great Tsar and a good person and still stray....our idols and heros are not perfect.

Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2005, 09:25:26 PM »
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It is not a rumor that N's grandfather had a mistress with whom he had several children.  He married her after the Empress died, and she became a Princess.

As for Alexander II, there is plenty of evidence of his affairs.

One can be a great Tsar and a good person and still stray....our idols and heros are not perfect.


He married her? I know close to nothing about him so I'm surprised!

Finelly

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2005, 09:29:43 PM »
Yep, he married her.  They had either two or three kids together before the wedding.  The Romanov clan was, to say the least, NOT happy.

Konstantine

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2005, 12:16:32 AM »
Finelly,


I think the main thing Ive been trying to say here, is that regardless of what opinions anyone including myself has of this even being possible,  why create one more thing to be speculated on by those who may have been misinformed to begin with?

The point is, Tsar Nicholas II, his wife and children, and everyone who really cared about them have had every possible type of misinformation and slander hurled at them for nearly 100 years. Unless Nicholas II wrote something himself in one of his journals concerning this matter,its not an appropriate thing to be discussed here without concrete facts to draw from.  And because of the fact that this is the only website of this size dedicated to the Royal family,I think anyone who takes this site seriously has a responsbility to at the very least keep the speculating to a minimum.  No matter what our personal opinions I think everyone would agree they deserve that much at this point.

Finelly

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2005, 09:43:17 AM »
Brendan - see, I disagree that there is an illegitimate child out there.  No problem with that.

But I do not consider the idea that Nicholas slept with other women before marriage to be slanderous.  <shrug>

bookworm857158367

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2005, 09:45:05 PM »
Reading Nicholas's letters and journals, I'd say he was  a normal young man who liked getting drunk, the camaraderie of his soldiers, and the company of young women. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he fathered a bastard or two before he married.

Finelly

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2005, 10:00:45 PM »
<gasp>

I'll fetch the smelling salts for Brendan.......

:)

lexi4

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Re: Did Nicholas II Have any Illegitimate Children
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2005, 12:26:24 AM »
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Reading Nicholas's letters and journals, I'd say he was  a normal young man who liked getting drunk, the camaraderie of his soldiers, and the company of young women. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he fathered a bastard or two before he married.

He would not be the first or the last to do so. And he did have some good examples to follow! But we will never know for sure.