Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)

[Robert_Hall]

Well, it is true Annie. Every library I have used has eactly that- intra-library loans. Sometimes there is a small fee, but usually not much. Try asking.

[Annie]

"Try asking?" That's rather insulting, I mean, considering all my posts, don't you think I've been looking into this for years? The place I used to live was a large metropolitan area of over a million people in 5 cities all boardering each other, and even they kept their library systems separate. As a matter of fact, once I returned a Chesapeake book to the Portsmouth library by mistake, and when I realized it and asked them about it, they said it was still sitting there and they refused to take it to them, and the libraries were only about a mile away from each other! They gave it to me and told me to take it back. Nope, no library sharing, not anywhere I've ever been There are also no 'small fees'- in Chesapeake, if you are not a resident, you must pay a yearly fee of $40 to even get services like ordering books from other librarirs, and this means branches of THEIR other libraries only! You can only check out 2 books at a time, and you can check them out from the other same city libraries, but you have to go get them yourself. They will have them sent from other branches=  their own branches, no other city's- for their residents, or those who pay the fee, but it still is only within the city. The idea of them searching for miles around is just not going to happen here. I guess we are more strapped for funds and hurt by budget cuts. My son's college library has cut its hours because of money, too. But really, if I ran a library, I wouldn't do it. Seems like half the stuff I'm looking for is 'missing', I can see how loaning out to everyone and their grandmother across hell and half of Georgia would lead to more unrecoverable losses.

[Sarushka]

Yikes! You've really got it rough there, Annie.

I can return anything from the county system to any library I choose. When books from outside the system are mistakenly returned, my local library coughs up the postage to send the book back to its rightful home.

There usually are no fees for inter/intra-library loans. That's where the taxes paid by residents and the fees paid by non-residents come into use (and as I said before, the non-resident fee is VERY reasonable compared to what residents pay in their taxes). The only time my system charges me is if the loaning library charges them, which is rare. It would seem to me that paying a non-resident fee at a good library is much more economical than buying old & rare books.

As for keeping track of their inter-loaned books, between computerized inventory systems on both ends, fax, and email, they do a fine job. Their only real risk is with the patron, and who's to say a patron in Chesapeake is more or less trustworthy than one in Michigan?   Loaning across a wider area does increase risk of loss, but it also increases the general knowledge of the population. As a person who's benefitted immensly from libraries' general willingness to trust patrons across the country, I think it's well worth the risk.

Bottom line: I'm sorry you have to deal with such a dark-ages library system. But please don't knock US libraries in general.

[M_Breheny]

Thanks, Sarushka, for your vote of confidence on behalf of libraries and librarians.  I agree that the library system in Annie's former city appears to be somewhat antiquated, and that is a real shame.  As for me, I am a reference librarian at a community college about 40 miles south of the cities of Chesapeake/Norfolk/Portsmouth/Virginia Beach.  True, I am in a different state (North Carolina), but our State Community College System provides free inter-library loan service throughout the state, as long as the patron is a community college student or has acquired a non-student, community-resident library card from our library.  On the other hand, I don't think it is that easy at our public library.   It is unfortunate that library service in the United States is not more unified.

[Rodney_G.]

   
   I Know this thread is ancient but my question remains. It's frequently stated that Sophie Bux. was the only one of the Imperial suite to avoid arrest and execution and to get away from Ekaterinburg. Yet both Gilliard and Gibbes were not axactly arrested and eventually left on atrain from Ekaterinburg to ultimate freedom.
   What's the difference between their status and Sophie's? Were they "retinue" and Sophie part of the Imperial "suite"? As Imperial family tutors for many years they became AP familiars. Their mere presence in  Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg with the children implies some sort of intimate status.  Trupp, Kharitonov and Demidova had lesser status than Gilliard and Giubbes  but were murdered. Could someone explain theDistinction?

[LisaDavidson]

"Try asking?" That's rather insulting, I mean, considering all my posts, don't you think I've been looking into this for years? The place I used to live was a large metropolitan area of over a million people in 5 cities all boardering each other, and even they kept their library systems separate. As a matter of fact, once I returned a Chesapeake book to the Portsmouth library by mistake, and when I realized it and asked them about it, they said it was still sitting there and they refused to take it to them, and the libraries were only about a mile away from each other! They gave it to me and told me to take it back. Nope, no library sharing, not anywhere I've ever been There are also no 'small fees'- in Chesapeake, if you are not a resident, you must pay a yearly fee of $40 to even get services like ordering books from other librarirs, and this means branches of THEIR other libraries only! You can only check out 2 books at a time, and you can check them out from the other same city libraries, but you have to go get them yourself. They will have them sent from other branches=  their own branches, no other city's- for their residents, or those who pay the fee, but it still is only within the city. The idea of them searching for miles around is just not going to happen here. I guess we are more strapped for funds and hurt by budget cuts. My son's college library has cut its hours because of money, too. But really, if I ran a library, I wouldn't do it. Seems like half the stuff I'm looking for is 'missing', I can see how loaning out to everyone and their grandmother across hell and half of Georgia would lead to more unrecoverable losses.

Annie - maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything here but a desire to help you get the Trewin book. if you lived closer, I could even loan you mine. My suggestion - ask Marlene. She is quite the librarian and also a scholar of royal history. If I were in your situation, I would ask her for a hand with an IL loan. Just a suggestion.

[LisaDavidson]

   
   I Know this thread is ancient but my question remains. It's frequently stated that Sophie Bux. was the only one of the Imperial suite to avoid arrest and execution and to get away from Ekaterinburg. Yet both Gilliard and Gibbes were not axactly arrested and eventually left on atrain from Ekaterinburg to ultimate freedom.
   What's the difference between their status and Sophie's? Were they "retinue" and Sophie part of the Imperial "suite"? As Imperial family tutors for many years they became AP familiars. Their mere presence in  Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg with the children implies some sort of intimate status.  Trupp, Kharitonov and Demidova had lesser status than Gilliard and Giubbes  but were murdered. Could someone explain theDistinction?

Buxhoeveden was a lady in waiting to the Empress and thus part of the Imperial Court. Gilliard and Gibbes were teachers of the Imperial children and thus not part of the Court. The distinction has nothing at all to do with the intimacy in which they lived with the IF, but just their status - or rather what their status would have been had the Revolution not happened.

I don't have my references handy, so if I'm wrong here, I will surely be corrected. I believe that Trupp, Kharitonov and Demidova all accompanied the Emperor to Ekaterinburg. All those who made such a journey were murdered. I think that those who accompanied the Imperial children, including Buxhoeveden, had differing fates. For example, Mdlle. Schneider was murdered, but Sophie was freed.

[Lemur]

The Bolsheviks were touchy about executing foreign nationals, in fear of angering governments who might want to attack and harm their then fragile hold on Russia. Gilliard was Swiss (neutral, remember this was shown in the movie Nicholas and Alexandra when he was separated from the family on the way to Ekaterinburg), Gibbes an Englishman, and Buxhoevedon thought to be a Swede due to her surname (according to her own account.) The three servants who were executed were Russian citizens.

[LisaDavidson]

The Bolsheviks were touchy about executing foreign nationals, in fear of angering governments who might want to attack and harm their then fragile hold on Russia. Gilliard was Swiss (neutral, remember this was shown in the movie Nicholas and Alexandra when he was separated from the family on the way to Ekaterinburg), Gibbes an Englishman, and Buxhoevedon thought to be a Swede due to her surname (according to her own account.) The three servants who were executed were Russian citizens.

You know, I have heard this line of reasoning for years, and it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. There were many people murdered during the Revolution and Civil War period and many of these were actually foreign nationals. The Bolsheviks, in truth, were "touchy" about one thing only -retaining their hold on power. Their behavior with regard to the Romanovs and those who served them was a mixed bag that is difficult to generalize about. Let's take a look at just a few of them, shall we?

1. Gilliard - the neutral Swiss would not, I am quite certain, have attacked Russia for killing PG. If the Nazis did not provoke them to going to war a generation later, I doubt that killing one teacher would have gotten them riled up.

2. Gibbes - I would be willing to buy the argument about his being British saving him, except none of the Imperial teachers were killed - not Petrov, not Gilliard, no one. So, I don't think this holds up.

3. Schneider - Alexandra's court reader was murdered outside Perm in 1918 and was a German. Many German born people were murdered by the Bolsheviks, including her and Alexandra and GD Ella, yet there was no German retaliation or threat of it. So, I don't think this holds up.

I think we cannot draw any conclusions about the reasons for Sophie Buxhoevedon's survival in Siberian captivity. We can say with certainty that the only other person of a similar rank, Countess Gendrikova, also a Russian lady in waiting, was murdered along with Schneider. Why this was so is debatable.

[ashdean]

Mlle Schneider was not German,she was Russian of German (at least on her fathers side) heritage.

[LisaDavidson]

Mlle Schneider was not German,she was Russian of German (at least on her fathers side) heritage.

I had always heard that Mlle. Schneider accompanied Alexandra from Darmstadt to Russia. Of course, there were many ethnic Germans who lived in the Russian Empire. And, there is a chance that Mlle. Schneider came from Russia to Darmstadt after the Imperial couple's engagement.

If this is true, it still tends to disprove the argument about why Buxhoeveden survived. She and Mlle Schneider would have been ethnic Germans who were Russian subjects and members of the Imperial Court. If in fact there was a policy to not execute foreign nationals, wouldn't she have been mistaken for being a German as was the Baroness?

[Annie]

Sophie was mistaken for a Swede, not a German.

This also brings to mind the story FA posted once about how part of the German peace treaty asked for the 'princesses of German blood' to be delivered safely to them. This is very likely responsible for the Perm stories and other 'sightings' of the women to cover the fact that they were dead. But anyway, my point is, it was another point to show that at least some Bolsheviks thought it best not to mess with executing citizens of other countries.

[Belochka]

She and Mlle Schneider would have been ethnic Germans who were Russian subjects and members of the Imperial Court. If in fact there was a policy to not execute foreign nationals, wouldn't she have been mistaken for being a German as was the Baroness?

Despite the surname Буксгевден (Buxhoeveden) was Russian born as was her parents. Her family descended from the Baltic area, with Danish and Swedish ancestry. Petr Fedorovich (1784-1863) was born in Russia, and served the Empire from 1850, as a General-leitenant in the Imperial suite. While his father, Fedor Fedorovich (1750-1811), was German born, and moved to Livonia. He served the Russian Empire as General in the infantry from 1803. He married an Orlov: the daughter of Empress Ekaterina II and G. Orlov, Nataliya Alexandrovna in 1777, a Smoyanka graduate.

Margarita

[Annie]

That's what I assumed, she had Swedish ancestry though she was ethnically mostly Russian, and Russian born and raised. Certainly worked out to her advantage! Thanks for the info!

So Sophie was a descendant of Catherine the Great?!

[ashdean]

Mlle Schneider was not German,she was Russian of German (at least on her fathers side) heritage.

I had always heard that Mlle. Schneider accompanied Alexandra from Darmstadt to Russia. Of course, there were many ethnic Germans who lived in the Russian Empire. And, there is a chance that Mlle. Schneider came from Russia to Darmstadt after the Imperial couple's engagement.

If this is true, it still tends to disprove the argument about why Buxhoeveden survived. She and Mlle Schneider would have been ethnic Germans who were Russian subjects and members of the Imperial Court. If in fact there was a policy to not execute foreign nationals, wouldn't she have been mistaken for being a German as was the Baroness?

Mlle Schneider was sent from Russia to Harrogate where the newly engaged Alix of Hesse was taking a cure. Having joined Alexandra's household she never left it.....