Author Topic: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)  (Read 80708 times)

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Offline hikaru

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #90 on: August 20, 2005, 04:03:24 AM »
I was just thinking, that even if Sofia said about treasures or gave them some  , she could be easily murdered. ( I do not think , if somebody could keep their
word, so seriously. Even White Army did not do it in some cases)

But she was not murdered.


AlexP

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #91 on: August 20, 2005, 04:31:57 AM »
Quote
I was just thinking, that even if Sofia said about treasures or gave them some  , she could be easily murdered. ( I do not think , if somebody could keep their
word, so seriously. Even White Army did not do it in some cases)

But she was not murdered.



Dear Hikaru,

You READ my mind.  This is what I have been thinking of over dinner.

I would venture to say that it is a KNOWN fact that the earliest elements of the CHEKA were not from the higher levels of Russian society, and I am being polite here so as not to anger one.

Given that they shot the old Mme Naryshkina at 90 years of age on-the-stop with no reason; given that they shot an entire branch of the Prince and Princess Mechersky family in the part of the Ukraine that they occupied with no reason; given that they shot the old debilitated Count Fredericks with no reason; given that they liquidated 25% (twenty-five percent) of the City of Omsk after taking it from the Kolchakii with no apparent reason; etc., etc., and given their LONG list of hideous crimes against the Russian people, the Church, the landed gentry, and just about anybody that they could get their hands on, including eventually liquidating each other, frankly, you are 100% correct...they could have shot her on-the-spot, as I keep saying.

And before continuing, the theory that the Vryubova passed herself as a harmless fool would not have fooled THEM for one Petersburg second as all of Russia by that point knew of her and the Camarilla of the final years -- that is just a convenient middle-class cover story, far from the truth, I believe.

So what did they offer up that was so major.

This is what I want to speculate on and ask your opinions.

1.  I would venture that Buxhoeveden was carrying or was part of knew of supplemental offers of asylum for the Imperial Family -- perhaps Canada, perhaps Ireland, perhaps South Africa, perhaps even Argentina, Brazil, Australia, Cuba -- all of it arranged by the British Secret Service -- or even perhaps, at its worst, an offer of asylum in Germany, or perhaps Sweden or Norway under German aegis.  The Baroness would have know the Legates and the Ambassadors -- they would have know her.  She was a far less contentious figure politically than the Vryubova and would have appeared to the Reds as the little lady doing petit-point.

     Or, and again I postulate, Nicholas and Alexandra would have provided her secretly with a list of the numbers of the numbered Tsarist bank accounts in Switzerland, and in London, and such other accounts as were in New York and San Francisco, which funds might have been used to buy their safety and that the Baroness was charged with this mission -- of getting to the West, with a "fonde de pouvoir" (accent on the e) and arranging these matters with the Imperial Ambassadors still in place, say Sazanov, for example.

3.  In terms of the Vryubova, I postulate that it might have been either one of the above, with the offers of rescue and safety being more likely.

Indeed, they would have not just exchanged information and then released these "damii" -- this is what I think escapes our modern readers.  AGRBear writes that this was a common practice in order to sully the person by the Cheka, etc., in the eyes of the others, but I am sorry, I politely disgree. They wouldn't have had to sully these two -- they simply would have shot them.

4.  Which comes back in my opinion to the really astute question raised by Hikaru -- how did the Baroness come by her "droit de sejour" in England when so many of the high nobility were refused "droit de sejour" in England?  Hikaru mentioned that at that point in time it was possible to "buy" a "droit de sejour" in England (a point that I cannot ascertain in 1919, so I would ask Hikaru to confirm where this idea comes from)..but if we postulate that a "droit de sejour" could be had for pounds sterling 100,000 in 1919, and if know for a fact that the Baroness had no evident source of income at all (she was not primogeniture in her own family), would it not be possible that the Baroness availed herself of this money from the Bank of England using one of the "fonde de pouvoir" that the Imperial Couple might have given her?

This is all speculation but I am trying to point our readers in what I think may be the right path for investigation.

With all of the best from Shanghai,



A.A.

Offline hikaru

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #92 on: August 20, 2005, 05:17:48 AM »
As for the droit de sejour , I just tried to compare the situation of their times with ours ( Now, anybody could arrange the citizenship of England for a reasonable amount)

As for Baroness , I think that she was connected  with London in some cases. Maybe in Red Army those times were some people who were connected with them too.
(It is not more just personal thinking)

Or maybe she just gave to one Iwan big diamond and she were released.

Or Maybe Lenin decided to release her in order to begin with the West some  talks about the Release of an Empresse and girls .
He had to do it in order to make the West thinking that
he is ready to release the girls and mother.

So when West talked about possible release, Lenin
have got the opportunity and time to kill them.




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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #93 on: August 20, 2005, 09:30:14 AM »
Sasha,

Permit a small correction, if I may. Freedericks was not shot, he was quite ill and very old, so they released him in a small show of uncharacteristic pity.  He died only about a month later at home.

You can read my translations of the Interrogations of Vyroubova and Freedericks on the AP mainpage, under Palace Archives.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

AlexP

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #94 on: August 20, 2005, 10:34:02 AM »
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Sasha,

Permit a small correction, if I may. Freedericks was not shot, he was quite ill and very old, so they released him in a small show of uncharacteristic pity.  He died only about a month later at home.

You can read my translations of the Interrogations of Vyroubova and Freedericks on the AP mainpage, under Palace Archives.



Dear Rob,

Please correct.  I appreciate your help.  I am here in Shanghai working basically from memory, so forgive me.

There was another very, very, very old retainer at the Imperial Palace, please help me with his name, and he WAS taken out and shot, along with his wife.  Can you help me here?

And thanks for all your assistance.

A.A.

And yes, I will read the Interrogations.  That is great.  I am sorry that I didn't see them.


Offline Dominic_Albanese

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #95 on: August 20, 2005, 10:45:18 AM »
Alex - you speculated that the Baroness might have known about Romanov assets in Switzerland, England or the United States.  If I've missed this someplace else i'm sorry but I thought that it had been pretty well established that the only Romanov money outside of Russia was in Germany and it was pretty much useless because of deflation at the end of WWI.  Have you read Clark's the Lost Fortune of the Tsar?

What are your thoughts on that?

Thanks for your information.

best,
dca

Offline lexi4

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #96 on: August 20, 2005, 11:26:00 AM »
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The term "deception" is a very strong expression to employ. The very idea that such behavior was perceived to exist, would raise many fundamental issues about motive.

Lexi4,

Are you able to provide us with primary sources which you were good enough to suggest had existed; in order to support your interesting contention?


Thanks in anticipation.

I am sorry I thought I had. Several posts over I cited FOTR. That is where the quote was from. I did not claim to have any sources other than that book. I merely said that the book was full of sources and cites. I must not have made myself clear. Please accept my apology. By the idea that she betrayed being out there for awhile, I was referring to AA's refusal to see the baroness saying she betrayed the family. I believe that was in Kurth, but again I could be wrong. If I am I stand corrected. I hope we all are held to to the same standard of posting our sources. I don't have a problem with that at all, but I do not want to be singled out. Others are speculating on this thread.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by lexi4 »
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Offline lexi4

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #97 on: August 20, 2005, 11:32:44 AM »
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Alex - you speculated that the Baroness might have known about Romanov assets in Switzerland, England or the United States.  If I've missed this someplace else i'm sorry but I thought that it had been pretty well established that the only Romanov money outside of Russia was in Germany and it was pretty much useless because of deflation at the end of WWI.  Have you read Clark's the Lost Fortune of the Tsar?

What are your thoughts on that?

Thanks for your information.



best,
dca



I am curious about this to Alex. Could you please cite your sources?
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Offline lexi4

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #98 on: August 20, 2005, 11:51:02 AM »
 Belochka,
When I said the idea that there was a betray was not new, here it the passage from Kurth to which I was referring.
P 58 of the book.  "At Ekaterinburg", the Inspector Grunberg explained, a rescue of the imperial family had been planned which, however, as Anastasia claims, was betrayed to the Bolsheviks by the lady in waiting Baroness Buxhoeveden, in an attempt to save her own life."  Said Anastasia, "That there had been a betrayal was clear to us. We spoke about it often in prison.  And then....."  Anastasia herself had cut off that sentence.  Where had "Isa" been when they all needed her?  she asked, calling the Baroness by the nickname the imperial family had always used.
"I must always think how Papa and Mamma sat there in Ekaterinburg and said that they could not undersdtand why Isa had changecd so during the last time in Tobolsk.
I hope that clears thing up for you about my post.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #99 on: August 20, 2005, 06:32:06 PM »
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Belochka,
When I said the idea that there was a betray was not new, here it the passage from Kurth to which I was referring.
 P 58 of the book.  "At Ekaterinburg", the Inspector Grunberg explained, a rescue of the imperial family had been planned which, however, as Anastasia claims, was betrayed to the Bolsheviks by the lady in waiting Baroness Buxhoeveden, in an attempt to save her own life."  Said Anastasia, "That there had been a betrayal was clear to us. We spoke about it often in prison.  And then....."  Anastasia herself had cut off that sentence.  Where had "Isa" been when they all needed her?  she asked, calling the Baroness by the nickname the imperial family had always used.
"I must always think how Papa and Mamma sat there in Ekaterinburg and said that they could not undersdtand why Isa had changecd so during the last time in Tobolsk.
I hope that clears thing up for you about my post.


Since we know, now, that AA wasn't GD Anastasia,  and, she might have been FS, then how would she know anything about what Buxhovenden did in Ekaterinburg?

Perhaps,  this was some kind of pay back from the time Buxhoveden pulled AA out of bed and said she was too short to be Tatiana ....

It is my opinion that anything AA tells us about Buxhoveden be dismissed since it was impossible for her to know what Buxhoveden did at any time accept at their meeting in Dalldorf, and, then,  I would tend to believe Buxhoveden before AA.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline lexi4

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #100 on: August 20, 2005, 09:58:02 PM »
Duh! Boy do I feel like and idiot. That is a very good point Bear and one I had not considered. Thank you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by lexi4 »
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #101 on: August 20, 2005, 11:59:18 PM »
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Since we know, now, that AA wasn't GD Anastasia,  and, she might have been FS, then how would she know anything about what Buxhovenden did in Ekaterinburg?
... It is my opinion that anything AA tells us about Buxhoveden be dismissed since it was impossible for her to know what Buxhoveden did AGRBear


Exactly Bear!!!

A pot of extra honey for you today. ;)


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AlexP

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #102 on: August 21, 2005, 06:35:28 AM »
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I am curious about this to Alex. Could you please cite your sources?


Dear Lexi4,

Thank you for the question and your very kind comments which I note with intellectual enthousiasm.

Please read my posting that you are questioning once more.  Throughthis this posting I use the words "postulate", "postulate", etc., etc., I am only dealing in intellectual suppostions, be they mine or be they those of others.  I am not dealing in asbsolute moral certainties nor do I purport to be, not in this posting, anyway.

And please, please forgive me in advance, but your repeated e-mails requiring that "I cite my sources" are beginning to sound like the oft-repeated strong entreaties of another (now defunct) posteress.  Perhaps I misunderstand your tone and your true meaning.  So thus forgive me.  But note the differences I mentioned above.  In answering your questions, I endeavor to take as high of a high moral ground as I can, both in terms of politeness and in terms of respect to your questions.  If I have failed, forgive me.

As I said, I am not stipulating, I am postulating, in a manner of intellectual endeavor.  This being said, I shall attempt to answer Dominic's question about the finances of the Imperial Family, albeit in another thread.  In this thread we are dealing with the Baronnes von Buxhoeveden and I hope that we may refocus thereupon.

With all of the best from Shanghai,



A.A.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AlexP »

Offline Lucien

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2005, 06:50:24 AM »
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I have no problem in having our research and conclusions challenged-it is, after all, how we learn things.  But, having given our evidence, I think if you want to responsibly challenge it you need to be more forthcoming.  Without hard evidence to the contrary, I'm not inclined to dismiss what we learned based on an unknown assertion.  So please share so we can assess which version is correct.

Greg King


I'm not quite sure as to your reply to Harald.Some people just will or can not give  what you call hard evidence on particulars,they just know.Where historians,authors have to go through research of some kind,others just know.

Is that not how some of the issues in books came/come about,you asked a question,they gave an answer,you relied on their accounts as they seemed very convincing.Others are just not to be questioned,they are better informed but don't put their knowledge on display,they are obliged not to give way.

Must be frustrating,to any author,but most to those that know better and don't like to see a certain person squandered.Hence Haralds post.As a reminder that not all that is published nescessarely reflects the truth,but just adds to sales.No offence intended.
Je Maintiendrai

Offline Belochka

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Re: Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden (1883-1956)
« Reply #104 on: August 22, 2005, 07:31:39 AM »
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... not all that is published nescessarely reflects the truth,but just adds to sales.


A very astute comment Lucien.

We can be guided in different directions by numerous research publications, but no one can claim that they are fully appraised about any issues, unless they themselves created the event, and even then that person may be deluded in believing that they hold the only key.

The difficulty lies in having the ability to distinguish between those variables and knowing which path is the most plausible.


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