Author Topic: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty  (Read 159444 times)

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Offline DonaAntonia

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #105 on: March 28, 2009, 11:53:46 AM »
Hello and thanks for your for your oppinion.

The fact: The person I was referring to is indeed Duarte Pio de Bragança.
 

Facts:

He was the son of an Austrian father and a Brazilian mother.
His mother was sister-in-law of Queen Amelia.

His father did have older sons who fought for the German side in World War I.
His father barely spoke Portuguese. He himself has an accent, as everybody knows.
His father was supported by the «Integralismo Lusitano» right wing in the 1920's.

After King Manuel died without any heirs and without indicating who should be the heir to the Bragança House, Queen Amelia became the only representant of that house.
King Manuel's wife, Augusta Victoria, established a fund after her husband's death concerning all the Bragança House properties that were his.
Queen Augusta Victoria remarried and was «forgotten» by the Portuguese royalists.
Queen Amelia agreed with dictator Salazar that all the sub-branches of the Braganças could be allowed to return to Portugal after King Manuel's death.
These branches included the descendents of usurpator «ex-prince Miguel», as he is referred to in the Monarchic Constitution that was still in use in 1910.

Queen Amelia returned to Portugal and received a State reception with Salazar's agreement.
Duarte Nuno emerged as a pretendant.
Being conservative and descending from the absolutist sub-branch he is accepted both by the Portuguese Gorvenment (a dictatorship) and by the Portuguese conservative Monarchists.

The Portuguese Monarchists who support democracy turn to Maria Pia, biological daughter of King Carlos, who also has no rights to claim the title.
Duarte Nuno comes to live in Portugal with his family.
Maria Pia of Bragança visits Lisbon and the political police (PIDE) tries to arrest her. She meets some of the top Portuguese intlectuals, including Poetress Sophia de Mello-Breyner (grand-daughter of king Manuel's doctor), who call her «Duchess of Bragança».
Maria Pia is received by opposition leader Mario Soares (future President of the Portuguese Republic) as Duchess of Bragança.
Duarte Nuno is received by the regime as Duke of Bragança.


Next generation.
Facts:

Duarte Pio is Queen Amelia's godson.
His wife Isabel is the great-grandaughter of the man who bought the arms that killed King Carlos in 1908 (Heredia-Viscount of Ribeira Brava).
Duarte Pio, by his own merit, becomes famous in the so-called tabloid press.
Duarte Pio gains supporters after Maria Pia loses her mind and sells her so-called «rights» to the title.

Duarte Pio's relation to the Portuguese throne is his great-grandfather, ex-King Miguel, who was banned for life, along with his descendents, from that same throne.
There are a lot of descendents from more recent generations of the Braganças.
2 years ago a book called «The Usurpator» was published. It was the first time anyone revealed how much power and money the title of Duke of Bragança included (like, for example, the properties of the D. Manuel II Foundation).


Historical facts:

King Pedro IV of Portugal abdicated in favor of his daughter Maria II and became Emperor of Brazil.
Queen Maria II was sworn as a Liberal sovereign (like in the English Monarchy, as opposed to in the German, for example).
King Pedro's brother Miguel usurpates the throne and tries to make a return to autocracy.
King Pedro leaves Brazil and comes to fight for the rights of his daughter.
King Pedro wins the so-called Liberal Wars.
King Pedro and/or his Generals have their names in the most important streets and squares of Portugal, includng the main square in the capital, Lisbon.
The Portuguese Monarchy becomes democratic and stays democratic until 1910.
Ex-king Miguel's heirs are forever banned from succession.
Ex-King Miguel's son is applauded as an heir by the ultra-conservative people and starts a paralel «line» in exile.
King Miguel's son is sworn as an Austrian soldier.
The Countess of Rio-Maior says, in her memoires, that this side of the family barely speaks Portuguese anymore (in the 1920's).


Conclusions:

1-If the title of Duke of Bragança may be given to someone whose ancestors lived abroad, it must be given to the descendants of the latest generation of Portuguese Sovereigns.

Generation 1: King Manuel had no legal descendants.

Generation 2: King Carlos had no legal descendants alive after the 1940's.

Generation 3: King Luis had no legal descendants alive after the 1940's. King Pedro V had no descendants.

Generation 4: Queen Maria II HAS many descendants.

Generation 5: King Pedro IV has descendents. His younger brother Miguel has descendants.
The present «heir» descends from ex-King Miguel.



2- If the title of Duque of Bragança may only be given to someone whose ancestors were all Portguese, we must find a branch that never left Portugal.

No such branches in generations 4 or 5.

Generation 6: King Joao VI had a daughter whose descendants were all born on Portuguese soil: Infanta Ana de Jesus Maria.


The facts are these and thus, as all who read us with no parties taken must conclude, one thing is for sure:

We cannot know who should be Duke of Bragança. But we can and do know that the person who calls himself that is not.

This is the imparcial point of view.
No parties taken, or I would had mentioned either the Ana de Jesus Maria side or the Queen Maria II side. Both of which, by the way, seem to be totally unaware and could not care less for all of this.

Since the vast majority of the Portuguese do not care also (either because they are Republicans or because they are ignorant of what I have just explained), maybe it doesn't matter.


Personal view;
It is ironic that the Portuguese Royalists came to support a couple formed by the descendent of an usurpator (ex-King Miguel) and the descendent of a person involved in the murder of a King.
And it is sad to know that, had King Carlos survived in 1908, none of them would even be in Portuguese soil.

I hope this shows the readers and/or leaders of this forum who are not Portuguese the reason why there is such polemic around this matter.

I though I should do it telling the whole story and the whole History.
My excuses to the Portuguese readers who already know all this and who have, in face of it all, made the opinion they think is correct.





 





«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline DonaAntonia

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2009, 12:57:41 PM »
Just 1 correction, according to the books: Francisca of Bragança was not Queen Amelia's sister-in-law, but sister-in-law of her nephew, the Duke of Orleans, head of the Orleans house who welcomed Queen Amelia in exile in France.


«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline DonaAntonia

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #107 on: March 28, 2009, 01:31:25 PM »
King Carlos as Duke of Bragança



«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline DonaAntonia

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #108 on: March 28, 2009, 01:33:48 PM »
Prince Luiz Filipe, his eldest son, as Duke of Bragança.



«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline DonaAntonia

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2009, 01:35:46 PM »
The day both King Carlos and Crown Prince (Duke of Bragança) Luiz Filipe were killed in Lisbon (1908), forever changing the course of Portuguese history.


«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline DonaAntonia

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2009, 01:36:45 PM »


«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline Jose II

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #111 on: March 28, 2009, 02:17:45 PM »
To Dona Antonia

This and the following post have revealed you...
Another Poidimani/Loulé/Câmara Pereira supporter !

But you could spare us from so much rubbish !

"The Portuguese title of «Duque» (Duke) is not, like in England, confined to the Royal Family."
Since when is the title of Duke confined to the RF in England ?
Have you ever heard of the Duke of Westminster, Wellington, Northumberland, Devonshire, Norfolk and so many others ?
Many of them older than the RF at least in its latest dynasties...

All members of the Portuguese RF - namely of male descendance- were indeed Princes.
There was the King and Queen and all the others were Princes and Princesses who happened to be styled as Infantes/Infantas.
Unlike other dynasties, the Braganças never had a cadet branch, except for D.Miguel's descendance.
He was indeed a king, so I guess you wouldn't have a problem of styling his son as a Prince.
Should f.i. Infante D.João, duke of Beja, have got married and fathered sons, they would be Princes of Portugal.
Before being royal dukes, they were princes and infantes !

Have you ever read about the descendancy of King D.João I ?
His younger son, Infante D.João (another Duke of Beja) had a son Prince D.Diogo, Portugal's condestável...and a daughter, Infanta D.Beatriz, who married Infante D.Fernando Duke of Viseu, a duke who actually fathered several princes/cesses and even a King, D.Manuel I

And it is not correct to say that most dukes appeared after the napoleonic and liberal wars.
Cadaval (1648), Lafões (1718) or the Duke of Caminha, condemned to death after the Independence Revolution.

It is silly to say that D.Duarte Pio (you forgot the Dom, did you notice ?) was Austrian.
He never had such nationality.
Emperor Franz Josef had conferred to D.Miguel II's house the statute of extra-territoriality, allowing his children to be Portuguese.

Infantes D.Miguel and D.Francisco served on the austrian army.
D.Miguel II, when Portugal joined the allies, immediately relinquished his position in the austrian army and dedicate himself to the Red Cross service.
His sons could not abandon the austrian army due to their contract, but asked to be posted in a front where there weren't any portuguese regiments.

"The Portuguese Monarchists who support democracy turn to Maria Pia, biological daughter of King Carlos, who also has no rights to claim the title."
Ridiculous !!!!!!!
Which portuguese monarchists turned to Maria Oia as you like to call her ?
May be Mário Soares :-)  :-)
But he would support whoever he fancied, that incongruent "bag of wind".
Who happened to attend D.Duarte's wedding, despite in times favouring your precious Mª Pia, remember ?????
"Maria Pia" supported Mário Soares, not the opposite. She was a left-winged woman who campaigned against Salazar - nothing to comment on that, it was her right to choose who to support.
She was also the crook who install herself at the Sheraton Hotel during the hot summer of 75 (then called the CIA Head-Quarters in Lisbon :-))and left without paying her sejourne, saying : "I am the Duchess of Bragança. Send the bill to the Foundation of the House of Bragança", who has nothing to do with the present RF and was the "legal" way Salazar found to steal the Braganças their heirloom.

Believe me, if PIDE wanted to arrest Maria Pia, they would have done it. They just escorted her out of the country on the basis of lack of proper documents and usurpation of identity.
She could have been worse treated.
As to Sophia de Mello Breyner, a great poetess, but ... not a very stable woman.
Did you know that her son Miguel Sousa Tavares also attend D.Duarte's wedding with his (at the time) wife Laurinda Alves ?

About D.Isabel's gr.grand-father:
Are the children responsible for their ancestors acts, namely after almost one century ?

D.Duarte and his merits:
Are you talking about his quixotesque campaign for Timorese independence ?
At the time noone paid much attention and he was even considered a pain in the a... for keep campaigning for the human rights and Timor independence.
In the end he was prooven right and his crown of glory was that all the politicians who undermined his campaignain rushed for holidays in Timor - with a brief stop for the Independence Cerimonies - but "forgot" to invite the person who never forgot the timorese people, brutally sacrified and tortured by the indonesian authorities.

"O Usurpador" - You must be kidding.
A booklet written by revenge by a frustrated fado singer .
The Câmara Pereira clan were long-time supporters of D.Duarte, having participated in many musical events before, at and after D.Duarte's wedding and at the 1st December cerimonies.
But one day, Nuno decided he should be "Dom", as a descendant from D.João VI, even if through an illegitimate line...
Even so, D.Duarte send the petition to the Nobility Council who decided against.
Since then, Nuno cut relations with D.Duarte and grabs every oportunity to "open fire" against him, and, suddenly, moved his "loyalty" to dear cousin Loulé, who would better keep a distance from him, as his loylaties are rather vague and change with the wind.
The book is full of crap and totally inaccurate.
Badly written, incapable of a phrase who makes sense, appalling grammar and worstly spelt - throughout the book there are references of Ghota.
May be nuno is suffering from mental ghota, "gout".

"King Pedro and/or his Generals have their names in the most important streets and squares of Portugal, includng the main square in the capital, Lisbon."
Is that your best argument ?
History is written by the winners. Should D.Miguel have won the war there would be streets and squares named after him and his generals.
Should Hitler and his gang have won WW2, there would be streets and squares honouring him and his guys.

There have been much discussion on the Loulé dynastic ability.
D.Ana de Jesus Maria's wedding was just authorized by D.Carlota Joaquina, who, at the time, had no legal powers, being just the Queen-Mother.
Children from that marriage were never considered eligible for succession, nor until 1910, nor until D.Manuel's death, nor after.
The present duke's father paid hommage to both D.Duarte Nuno and D.Duarte Pio.

"2- If the title of Duque of Bragança may only be given to someone whose ancestors were all Portguese, we must find a branch that never left Portugal."
The Loulés don't fit on your interesting argument .
The Marquess of Loulé at first rallied with D.Miguel, but, influenced by his wife, he joined D.Pedro.
A highly dubious man and politician, he decided to leave the country and settle abroad, although there have never been any arrest orders against him, so ... your precious Loulés also left the country at one time.
And on their own will, not forced by an army !

D.Maria II's lots of descendants are not able to succeed the portuguese throne.
The Infantas renounced their rights when they got married.
And where is your coherence ?
D.Duarte Nuno was born in Austria and (says you) could hardly speak Portuguese.
Do you want to invite the Margarave of Meissen or the Furst of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, both born in Germany and who certainly can't speak a word in Portuguese ???

"The facts are these and thus, as all who read us with no parties taken must conclude"
Which is your case, of vourse LOL LOL LOL

Offline DonaAntonia

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #112 on: March 28, 2009, 03:12:28 PM »
Hello Jose II,

I tried to be civilized and impartial here.

I have not mocked your posts, not even when you say there was a King Miguel II.

So please mind your language with all your LOLs and calling me «Podi???(what)/Luolé/Camara pereira» suporter.

I do not support or know any of there people and, even following your oppinion, how could anyone support them all at one time? I suggest you go back to History books and may be be a little less partial.

For me, I am through talking with non-democratic Royalists. Thank you.


«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #113 on: March 28, 2009, 07:45:04 PM »
It is quite usual that people get fired up emotionally in these threads. Anyway, the monarchy in Portugal is gone, and any possible reinstatement would require the will of the people going for it. It is the same in Russia.

Offline Amelio

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #114 on: March 31, 2009, 03:49:15 AM »
Please do not sulk, Dona Antonia! This «Jose» has been spreading his Duarte Nuno propaganda for quite some time now. He has been from topic to topic and from post to post shooting at anything that sounds like Democracy for quite some time now. And you only have to look at the original photos he posts to find out that he is someone close to Duarte Pio himself.  ;)
Let me tell you that Duarte Pio's people see their pretender as a taboo, as if he were the Pope himself. That is why they never discuss or bother to mention all you said. And nothing of what he answered refutes what you said. He gives you more names of Dukes who had their titles because of military actions and he decides that Duarte Nuno is Portuguese because the Emperor of Austria said so. Even if the Emperor ever did, how could he had decided who was Portuguese or not?  ::)
I have been following this forum for quite a while and it is the first time anyone states all the facts about the false pretendant, the pretender, saying and teaching what must be known by everyone.  :)
José: you should be ashamed to insult your fellow posters here in the forum. You should be ashamed to insult your own country, calling a head of State a bag of air and a major poet an instable woman in an International Forum!
Who are you, José, to insult your country and say we have statues of a king like Hitler?
King Pedro IV was a liberator and you compare him to Hitler. And you say his statues are on our squares because Hitler's would also be everywhere had he gained the war?
For your information, King Pedro IV's statues have been on our major squares for 150 years, through all kinds of regimes. He was a liberator and is seen as such by every Portuguese and by Portuguese history books. If you don't like the streets of your country, sir, you should try to live somewhere else.  :o
I am a proud citizen of Oporto, a city that was always by Pedro IV and Maria II's side when they fought Absolutism.  >:(
We do have a King Pedro statue in our main square.
It is in the exact same place where his baby brother Miguel used to hang anyone who was against his own oppinion!!!!! That goes to prove who you can compare to Hitler!!!!

Offline DonaAntonia

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #115 on: March 31, 2009, 07:38:57 PM »
A lady does not sulk, Amelio. I just want to have moderation here. Thank you.


«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline PrinceEddy1864

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #116 on: March 31, 2009, 10:03:30 PM »
and i LOVE your photos dona antonia.

have you got any rare ones of Pedro V or Franzisca de Joinville (Pedro II's sister).
from the top of the ocean to the bottom of the sky.
albert victor christian edward.

Offline DonaAntonia

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #117 on: April 01, 2009, 08:11:33 PM »
Thank you so much PrinceEddy! I will try to post some of their photos here soon. Francisca's photos are rare because she was born into a generation that was only photographed in later life. There is a book about her travels, do you know it?

and i LOVE your photos dona antonia.

have you got any rare ones of Pedro V or Franzisca de Joinville (Pedro II's sister).


«I am sometimes afraid of being so attached to my Country.
Only now, after leaving, do I realize how much I love the Portuguese.»
 
Princess Antonia (letter to her brother, King Luiz, 1887)

Offline PrinceEddy1864

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #118 on: April 02, 2009, 03:12:02 AM »
Thank you so much PrinceEddy! I will try to post some of their photos here soon. Francisca's photos are rare because she was born into a generation that was only photographed in later life. There is a book about her travels, do you know it?

and i LOVE your photos dona antonia.

have you got any rare ones of Pedro V or Franzisca de Joinville (Pedro II's sister).

It is TOO bad she was such a beauty...based on earlier paintings...
from the top of the ocean to the bottom of the sky.
albert victor christian edward.

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Braganza royal family & Brazilian royalty
« Reply #119 on: April 02, 2009, 05:16:28 AM »
...based on earlier paintings...

Exactly. Only in her early portraits. The adult photos shows not even the pretty but somewhat ugly woman.