Westernization vs Russification and Pan-Slavism

[pookiepie]

Hi tania, I understand what you are saying. I too am proud of my heritage:) (even though I have 2, unfortunately, I was only raised in the Russian one). as for the fighting, I only mentioned that because we all know that forums tend to get off topic, and how irritating that is to us all and I was afraid that this one would too.

[Elisabeth]

well, the way figes wrote the chapter gave me the impression that they were at least partly anti russian. some didn't even speak russian, they didn't read russian, etc... I don't have my notes from class with me so i can't write any more about this right now. maybe it would've been more accurate to say that they were sort of embarassed of their russian-ness for a while.

It's quite true, as Pookiepie claims, that some Russian aristocrats in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries never learned to speak or write Russian properly. In such cases, which presumably were none too common (remember the aristocracy was a small percentange of the nobility, much less of the total Russian population), the first language of the child was usually French. He grew up speaking French with his parents, siblings, and tutors, and spent his maturity speaking French at court and with his peers. What Russian he learned was minimal, for the purpose of speaking to servants. I'm sorry, Tatiana, but this was the case with some aristocrats even into the late nineteenth century.

On the other hand, just because a nobleman was thoroughly Gallicized doesn't mean he was anti-Russian. These people were Russian patriots and fought valiantly in Russia's many wars, including the Napoleonic Wars. But the Napoleonic Wars are a good example of the ubiquitousness of French in Russian aristocratic high society - if you read Tolstoy's War and Peace in the original Russian you will find that much of the first page is in French! That's because this was the language Russian aristocrats spoke to each other and were most comfortable with, and Tolstoy, ever the realist, is portraying Russian high society as it actually was in the early nineteenth century.

[Romanov_fan]

I think that as a general statement, at least from what I have read, it seems true to say that French was spoken, but it did not make anybody anti Russian. It was just the language of court and that culture, and it didn't have anything to do with not being proud of, or of, Russian heiritage. Certainly, there were aristocrats like those refered to in the last post, but I think these were the minority rather than the majority. To make the  statement that speaking French was anti Russian in general goes against anything I know.There is always a majority, but sometimes people do things differently than that majority. The aristocrats named in the last post seem an execption to the rule rather than the rule. That's a big difference.

[David_Pritchard]

actually, we're learning this in class right now. our book is natasha's dance by Figes and he does a pretty good job talking about this. i especially liked the french connection. i knew they spoke french but i didn't realize the extent of the upper class's anti-russian-ness.

You were taught that the nobles spoke French but you were not told why? A knowledge of French allowed the nobles to read the latest books, pamphlets and newspapers from western Europe and to converse with most foreign visitors to Moscow and Saint Petersburg. Knowing how to speak French during the 18th century was as important as knowing how to operate a computer in the 21st century. You should not see the speaking of French as being anti-Russian, but rather an educational requirement of the time. I believe that the daily usage of French in Russian noble households was motivated by the need to keep family conversations private around gossiping Russian speaking servants.

I think that you confuse the nobles rejection of the crude ways of the Russian peasant with being anti-Russian. If one finds the shooting of snot out of ones nostrils onto the floor or the use of ones sleeve as a serviette at the dinner table objectionable, does this make them anti-Russian and pro-French/ pro-Western?


David

[lori_c]

 If one finds the shooting of snot out of ones nostrils onto the floor or the use of ones sleeve as a serviette at the dinner table objectionable, does this make them anti-Russian and pro-French/ pro-Western?


David

What?!?

[pookiepie]

Ok, I just reread my post and I see what you are saying. I totally didn’t mean to say that anyone who speaks French is anti-russian just because of that. I probably should have split it up. Sorry about that.

[Romanov_fan]

Indeed, speaking French wasn't anti Russian, but we understand if that was not the way it was meant. I thought that was a pretty sweeping assertation to make, because there is no book that would agree I don't think except in parts. It wasn't negative that they spoke French nor surprising in the least.  Anyway, have you ever gotten the feeling that in the last century or so of Imperial Russia, and specifically in Alexander III's family and beyond that there was more emphasis on being Russian, in various ways, and being connected to the common people of Russia? You certainly see that in Alexander III.

[lori_c]

Indeed, speaking French wasn't anti Russian, but we understand if that was not the way it was meant. I thought that was a pretty sweeping assertation to make, because there is no book that would agree I don't think except in parts. It wasn't negative that they spoke French nor surprising in the least.  Anyway, have you ever gotten the feeling that in the last century or so of Imperial Russia, and specifically in Alexander III's family and beyond that there was more emphasis on being Russian, in various ways, and being connected to the common people of Russia? You certainly see that in Alexander III.

Yes Imperial Angel:

Alexander III was noted for placing more emphasis on Russian Nationalism (in addition to Autocracy and Orthodoxy).  It was a very big part of his reign and he enjoyed being the embodiment of "all things Russian". He is often described as a big Russian Bear of a man.   His dress, his mannerism, and partly even his politics.  He retreat with his family to Gatchina was for security reasons.  But I feel that after the death of his father Alexander II, The Tsar Liberator, Alexander III wanted to steer things back to the way he thought would be closer to his definition of "all things Russian" (It is noted that the Tsar loved peace and I believe I read that there were no Wars during his Reign.) But as noted in a previous post, French was an educational requirement of the time.  It had been spoken in the court since the time of Catherine the Great.  In reaching into the past, beyond Alexander II reforms, AIII probably felt he was linking his reign to the "real Russia" of the time of great great grandmother.

[Romanov_fan]

Yes, I thought that was true of Alexander III, that he really embraced things Russian, and encouraged his family to do so. You see more of a liking and doing of things Russian in the last generations of the Romanovs than for a long time, or at least particularly it was there. His son, Nicholas II, has been said to have been a better ruler for the 16th century which was the era of Tsar Alexis, and very traditional old Russia, than he was for the 20th. I think Nicholas II took that from his father as well as his own personal inclinations. He was undoubtedly particularly inclined to be that way, but he had the example of his father and immediate famiy to show him.

As for French, it was just the main language of these centuries in many ways, in different European countries, not just in Russia. Never in any country did it mean that they were not natively what they were, it was more a mark of sophistication and a common belonging to Europe.  Different languages as a whole have sometimes played this role. Court culture and the culture of the native country might seem at times to be differemt, but each complemented each other.