Author Topic: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War  (Read 134736 times)

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Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #120 on: December 01, 2004, 12:18:20 PM »
Brusilov's memoir was published in London in 1930 (with the assistance of his widow I believe).  It's called "A Soldiers' Notebook 1914-18".

It's a while since I read it but it's no more self-serving than any other autobiog and amusing in places.  Brusilov was supposed to have started work on the official history of the war but I suppose the Reds trashed that when they came to power.

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #121 on: December 02, 2004, 06:54:34 PM »
Mike - what's the SGU collection - I have bnever seen that painting before - it's amazing...

Bob

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #122 on: January 07, 2005, 04:44:51 PM »
Mike told me:
SGU is the Russian abbreviation for Saratov State University.

See http://www.sgu.ru/rus_hist/

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline jtareb

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #123 on: January 09, 2005, 06:38:54 PM »
A) On the original question I would have to say neither side had any claim to moral superiority over the other. It was a pure power struggle more like the civil war between Ceasar and Pompey than the American civil war.

B) Brusilov is one of the most fascinating soldiers of WW1. Bruce Lincoln has an excellent short description of his 1916 offensive in "Passage through Armageddon". Many of his subordinates went on to careers in the Red Army, some even in WW2. I read somewhere on the web that he lost a leg between 1918 and 1920 to disease and was in hiding in Moscow when he came forward and volunteered his services to the Reds. Trotsky knew of his reputation and accepted his services as part of his program to professionalize the Red Army.


Offline AGRBear

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #124 on: January 10, 2005, 08:49:01 PM »
Thanks for the additionl information.

I posted this map in several other places but it should be incerted here as well.

It gives us a detail map of how much  control the Whites had for a time.....



Many of us know very little about the men who fought in the Russian Civil War (1918-1921/2].

Just look at the map.  Who were these men:  
Cecek
Syrovy
Gajda

and the others like

Kolchak
Wrangle
Dieterichs
Semenov
Sternberg
???

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Olga

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #125 on: January 11, 2005, 12:51:54 AM »
Semyonov, Vrangel and Kolchak are all very well known.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #126 on: January 11, 2005, 10:02:15 AM »
How many of you know this about Kolchak?

At the age of 43 he was  promoted to the level of "Rear-Admiral.  At the age of 44, June 1916 he was promoted to "Vice-Admiral" and given the Black Sea Fleet.  He evidently had "clashes" with the men who were part of the administration who's efficiency he questions...  



p. 32  THE FATE OF ADMIRAL KOLCHAK by Peter Fleming:  "When the whole fabric of naval discipline collasped under revolutionary stresses Kolchack-- after a dramatic scene in which, at a mass meeting on the deck of his flagship, he took leave of the Fleet by throwing his sword  overboard-- resigned his appointment and accepted an invitation from the Unites State Navy Department to lead a small technical mission to America."

p.  33:  
"...He was on his way back to Russia across the Pacific when news of the Bolshevik Revolution and of Russia's impending wihdrawal from the war reached him....."

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #127 on: January 12, 2005, 10:07:39 AM »
Quote
I posted this map in several other places but it should be incerted here as well.

It gives us a detail map of how much  control the Whites had for a time.....



Many of us know very little about the men who fought in the Russian Civil War (1918-1921/2].




Kolchak
Wrangle
Dieterichs
Semenov
Sternberg
???

AGRBear


  I am familiar with all the names listed above except Sternberg (sorry). Yes, Agrbear, you are right that the Whites did control a great deal of territory for a short time however they were unable to consolidate long term support.
  Basicly the White movement offered a return to the past, but most of Russia was looking for something new!

rskkiya

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #128 on: January 12, 2005, 01:58:49 PM »
Which of these men were supporting the return of Nicholas II to the throne?

And,  if a particular person did, did he  want Nichols II  as a "monarch" or did he feel Nicholas II's role should have been something similar to the role Elisabeth II of England has?

And, who were those who didn't want Nicholas II returned to the throne?  Do you know who they did  want to rule Russia?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #129 on: January 12, 2005, 07:38:27 PM »
Reread A PEOPLES TRAGEDY!

rskkiya

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2005, 01:09:34 PM »
Quote
Reread A PEOPLES TRAGEDY!

rskkiya


Is there a particular part you'd like us to read / reread  so it will become part of this discussion, or, is this just mentioning a good book to read?

AGRBear



"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #131 on: January 13, 2005, 05:52:28 PM »
I believe it is both a good book to read and pertinent to this discussion. It does explain that the Whites were not able to consolidate their gains or maintain them - for this reason, I think the poster referred us to that work.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #132 on: January 14, 2005, 12:00:54 PM »
Figes tells us in A PEOPLE'S TRAGEDY  Gen. Aleveev and  Kornilov are given the credit for being  "founders" of the Whites.



I wasn't sure if I should talk about him here or over on the new thread about "But was the revolution inevitable".

Gen. Alexeev was the last chief of staff in the imperial army.  Here are a few bites and pieces Figes wrote about him:

p. 169 "The Commander-in-Chief...Admiral Alexeev knew almost nothing about the art of war.  Afraid of horses, he had to suffer the indignity of inspecting his cavalary on foot.  Alexeev's promotion had been largely due to the patronage of the Grand Duke Alexis, whom he once rescued from the French police..."

p. 269  Figes talks about Nicholas II taking command of the front and he had taken with him his  .... "new Chief of Staff General M. V. Alexeev, who was a gifted strategist....."

A gifted strategist who knew all about the old wars where there was a front line, attack and  position.... However, the war against the Reds was something new and never really understood by the leaders of the Whites who held the reins of control.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline jtareb

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #133 on: January 14, 2005, 03:51:55 PM »
Keep in mind Alexeev was dying of cancer by 1919. Also the fact that the Whites had no unified command while the Reds had Trotsky. Trotsky's role in the eventual Red victory cannot be understated and to my knowledge has never been fully documented.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Whites Vs Reds The Civil War
« Reply #134 on: February 02, 2005, 05:39:17 PM »
I am surprised no one has brought up the subject of Trotsky.  Seems like to me, if anyone was a hero in the Bolshvik camp it would have been Trotsky.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152