Author Topic: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?  (Read 101164 times)

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Offline etonexile

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #405 on: July 01, 2005, 07:35:56 PM »
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Thanks Kimberly.

On p. 47 of THE ESCAPE OF ALEXEI, SON OF TSAR NCHOLAS II which is about the claimant Vasily Filatov,  there is  a copy  [I assume it's authentic] of a letter from Evgeny Botkin to "Mr. Chairman" of the Provincial Executive Committe.  The letter talks about Alexei's condition there is no date attached:

>>...Alexei Nikolaevich is subject to pains in the joints from bumps that are complety unavoidable....and that are accompanied by seepage of fluids and resultant excruciting pains.  In these events the boy suffers day and night with inexpressible pain..."

No mention of the word "hemophilia" in this particular letter.

AGRBear


Perhaps once again a "knee-jerk" reluctance to say the..."H"...word...?

Bear and others....do you NOT think that the uncles,cousins,and various relations of AN,descendants of Queen Victoria,had haemophilia...???

Offline AGRBear

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #406 on: July 01, 2005, 08:01:02 PM »
The question is about Alexei.

Since 1917 a lot of new blood disorders which seem to have the same symptons as hemophilia have been discovered.  

Someone said there were 36 possible blood disorders, so, some of us are trying to eliminate 35 of the possibilities and see if what we end up with is hemlophilia.

Evidently, there are no medical records of Dr. Derevenko's which survived / or we know exist.

What we have are a lot of people telling us he had hemophilia because it's a proven fact, when, in fact we don't know that it is.

We realize that Alexei had the best of doctors just as we realize that medicine wasn't that far advanced to even know there were blood types  "O",  "AB" etc.   at that time.

We also realize that we don't need to squable because the facts and evidence should take us all to the same conclusion.

So, help us fiqure out which of the 36 to eliminate.

I am not sure if one can prove Alexei had hemophilia because a cousin may have had hemophilia.  I believe a person has to work separately with each individual.  

If we had a sample of Alexei's blood then the answer could be discovered by tests.

As far as we know, the bones of Alexandra were not tested to see if she was a carrier.....  so we don't even know about this link to hemophilia.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #407 on: July 01, 2005, 09:53:50 PM »
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Dear Bear,thrombocytopenia can occur in the newborn but Alexeis symptoms dont really match this disorder. Alloimmune thrombocytopenia is caused when maternal blood cells attack the foetus's cells and the baby is born with abnormally low platelets. 10-20% die of intra-cranial bleeds from the delivery. Thrombocytopenia later in life can be caused by abnormal bone marrow production of white cells,Aplastic Anaemia.abnormal spleen. The symptoms can include nose bleeds and tiny red dots forming a rash (purpura) and bleeding from the gums. Do these symptoms fit Alexei? I really feel that the poor lad suffered from Haemophilia but i find these discussions both informative and fascinating.



Please understand that thrombocytopenia is not a disease.  It is only a symptom of disease.

Although the word does appear in the title of some diseases.... Thrombocytopenia by itself is nothing more than a fancy ten dollar medical word that means a low platelet count.

Please read:
http://www.merck.com/pubs/mmanual_ha/sec3/ch49/ch49c.html

You should also be aware that the most common cause of excessive bruisng and bleeding *IS* a low platelet count..... thrombocytopenia... not a clotting factor deficiency.

.. and a number of blood diseases that include a low platelet count as one of their major symptoms are known to be caused by genes that are inherited in an X-linked fashion

Offline Kimberly

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #408 on: July 02, 2005, 03:41:04 AM »
Mr. Kedrick,no where in my post did i use the word disease. I was careful to use the term "disorder"i.e. meaning disturbance of the normal working of the body. ;)
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Offline etonexile

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #409 on: July 02, 2005, 10:24:59 AM »
The question is about Alexei...erm...yes...but don't you think that his male blood relations who also were "bleeders" have a certain relevance....?

Offline lostfan

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #410 on: July 02, 2005, 05:36:24 PM »
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Dear Mr. Kendrick,
The New York Times, Nov. 10, 1912. Pg C1. "The medical publication Hospital in commenting on the recent pronouncement of the Czar's physicians that the Czarevitch has haemophilia says that this malady was frequently observed by scientists among Eurpoean royal families in the early and middle ages.  (emphasis added)




This article mentions Alfonso XIII and Ena's second son having hemophilia, which caused his deafness, which is incorrect. It was their eldest son, Alfonso, Prince of the Asturias, who was the hemophiliac, as well as their youngest, Infante Gonzalo. Jaime, the second son, was deaf due to double mastoiditis when he was four.
Men are haunted by the vastness of eternity. And so we ask ourselves: will our actions echo across the centuries? Will strangers hear our names long after we're gone and wonder who we were? How bravely we fought? How fiercely we loved?

Offline Grand Duke

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #411 on: October 15, 2005, 08:05:41 PM »
I don't know if this was already posted but I found this scientific article from The American Journal of Hematology:

"Russia's imperial blood: Was Rasputin not the healer of legend?"
John M.L. Kendrick
American Journal of Hematology
Volume 77, Issue 1, 2004. Pages 92-102
Copyright © 2004 Wiley-Liss, Inc., A Wiley Company

I only have the Abstract:

The only son of Russia's last Tsar, a great-grandson of Queen Victoria, continues to be used as the favorite example of the X-linked inheritance of hemophilia, in spite of the fact that this popular historical diathesis has never been confirmed by any form of modern medical laboratory testing.
Certain to be controversial, a new study of the symptoms that were witnessed by those who were closest to the teenaged Russian heir now raises the possibility that his blood disorder might well have been something other than hemophilia.
The key to discovering Tsarevich Alexei's true diagnosis is found in those now legendary allegations that the infamous Mad Monk, Grigory Rasputin, had possessed a power of healing that was somehow responsible for the young boy's mysterious history of spontaneous recoveries. If we are to accept the popular diagnosis of history and call it a clotting factor deficiency, then the boy's now famous sudden recoveries will remain a complete mystery. The so-called Mad Monk Rasputin, as a direct result of the revolutionary propaganda of the time, is then overblown into a larger-than-life legend. If, however, we are to change the diagnosis and call it a platelet disorder, then the air is let out of the legend, and Rasputin is revealed to have been nothing more than a very ordinary middle-aged Siberian hippie who did not possess any healing powers at all.

Link: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109593773/ABSTRACT
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Offline Eternal_Princess

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #412 on: October 15, 2005, 10:43:32 PM »
I agree almost ephatically with the above article Grand Duke posted.

In planning to write a book on Alexei, I have had to do serious research, and continue to have to reel back any notes I've compiled because of new information and inconcisties in information from supposed reliable sources.

Alexei's illness for one, is something that you have to travel back to Queen Victoria's father for the answer.

The current theory on Hemaophelia in the British royal line is related in recent studies that suggest the older a man is when he impregnates a woman, the more likely the child is to have a deficancy or carry a hereditary disease.

It has something to do with the age of a man's seed, which ages as a man does, unlike a woman's womb which constantly renews itself.

So for years they blamed Victoria's mother, when in fact it was her fifty-four year old father and not her mother, who was only in her mid-thirties!

This is once cause to how they believe Hemaophelia could have developed in that line, however, (and this brings up the quintisential however part, bear with me.)

There are more studies to believe that this is not the case, that hemaophelia is a genetic disease, going back in families through the paternal side, reguardless of age!

So, there are no records of Hemaophelia in the line of George the I or any of his children, it's not carried through the maternal line of the paternal, so what did the children and Grandchildren of Victoria have?

One theory suggests that it was a very mild disorder, that Empress Alexandra had herself had, that merely brought a rush of blood to the face and very red marks when bruised!

Rasputin, so many sources believe and I trust these ones, was a student of Asian medicine from suspcious teachers, and practices most unconventional.

One source believes the magic medicine with which he used to treat Alexei, was pure Asprin. Asprin, in it's pure bark form, he would have most likely crushed it himself, can cause bleeding of the stomach lining, causing nose-bleeds and joint discomfort!

So poor Alexei, who might have bleed a tiny bit after his umbelical cord was cut, (which we know is not unusual now,) causing alarm, and a few red marks when he bruised, was at the mercy of Rasputin's coniving mind.

Ana Vorynoba is to be blamed as well, she was very supceptable to fads and Alexandra was a desperate woman, (as you can see by how fast she aged!)

Weather or not it was hemaophelia or a related, less intense blood disorder, Rasputin obviously aggrivated it to make it seem more extreme and to make him look important when he managed to stop it.

Recall the incident at Mogliv when Alexei hurt himself, and the message from Rasputin was: "leave him alone and he'll be fine." ?!

Alexei, who had completely relied on Rasputin's medicine in previous attacks, recovered after a few days and Nicholas began to fume. He knew something had been going on with his poor son, who seemed to be in fairly good health now.

He sent Alexandra home, warned her not to send Rasputin here, kept an eye on his son and did not let Alexei go home for a visit until Rasputin's death!

Apart from the rumoured sledding incident in confinement, (which I don't believe,) Alexei's years after Rasputin and before his imprisonment and recorded death,were fairly good ones.

He played with his pets, swam in lakes, and was a normal, active boy and later teenager.

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but there's a painting, I think it's in Anastasia's album, which is curious in that it shows Alexei, tall and pale, falling back against his father, rather then screaming in Nicholas arms in pain!

So, I believe that the incident of him and his sled is only a myth, and that Alexei was maturing into a healthy young man with a mild blood disorder, and nothing as extreme as people have claimed.

(Sorry for all the writting. :-X)





 
The little Tsarevich is still so young!
Alexei's a fledgling, an innocent son.
Holy Russia, pray for this little one.

(Marina Tsvetaev)

Offline Georgiy

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #413 on: October 16, 2005, 04:28:27 AM »
While the story about the sled is, I think myth, probably from the movie Nicholas and ALexandra, the fact remains that he had one of his most serious bouts of haemophilia whilst in Tobolsk. He was so unwell that he could not be moved, which is why the family was split up with most of the children going to Ekaterinburg after the parents. It was some time after they got to Ekaterinburg that he was well enough to have a bath. He was still so weak in July, his father had to carry him to the cellar as he couldn't walk properly. Whatever blood disorder he had, and I think it was haemophilia because all the signs are there, it was no minor thing that could be tweaked by Rasputin at will.

Offline Eternal_Princess

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #414 on: October 16, 2005, 11:01:22 PM »
Possibly, I was almost certain that bout of illness that caused them to be split up was supposedly caused by the myth of the sled ride he took down the stairs. Perhaps it was something else rather then hemaophelia that caused him to be bed ridden?  :-/
The little Tsarevich is still so young!
Alexei's a fledgling, an innocent son.
Holy Russia, pray for this little one.

(Marina Tsvetaev)

Offline Lanie

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #415 on: October 17, 2005, 01:05:22 AM »
Just to correct you, E_P, her name was Anna Vyrubova and it's Mogliev. :)

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #416 on: October 17, 2005, 07:16:53 AM »
In little Alexei Nikolaevich we see a boy who bled from deep internal bruises into the joints and muscles from the time he began to walk and crawl, whose prolonged bleeding time and hematomas differed enough from the bumps and bruises of an ordinary boy enough to send him to bed.  Anecdotal evidence records these episodes occurring from the slightest mishaps when they are least expected, varying in intensity from mere mentions that the boy had hurt himself 'again' to profound expressions of worry.  Not every incident threatened the boy's life, but he certainly suffered every time!  We read in his diary that towards the end of his life the Tsarevich had begun to manage a disease with episodes that followed a predictable course.

It surprises me that familiarity with the course of hemophilia cannot be assumed in those that speculate that Alexei Nikolaevich may not have suffered from it.  If any conclusion that he did not have the disease could be reached through comparison of his case to the course of hemophilic episodes, which would surprise any doctor, then that might hold water.  

The Tammet theory is a red herring.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #417 on: January 02, 2006, 03:50:16 PM »
Bumping up since the subject has returned in another section.

AGRBear
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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #418 on: January 05, 2006, 11:00:16 PM »
Recently, one of my great-uncles, a physician, died and I inherited a half of his books. One of them was "Blood Diseases". It's a little old now (It's from the 1980's) but it has the symptoms of both, Hemophilia (there is several kinds of hemophilias) and Throbocytophenia. Most likely, Alexei suffered from Hemophilia. Hemarthrosis is an aftermath of hemophilia, not of Thrombocytophenia, and Alexei had a lot of hemarthrosis manifestations after his bleedings episodes.

In the early XX Century , a person suffering from Thrombocytopenia should have died very soon. No possible surviving. A person with hemophilia could survive a little more, as we could notice in the case of Prince Leopold, Alix's uncle.

If you want, I'll try to translate the thrombocytophenia and Hemophilia symptoms to shown why, in my humble opinion, the Tsarevitch had HEMOPHILIA.

RealAnastasia.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: So WHY would it not have been hemophilia?
« Reply #419 on: November 05, 2006, 10:40:13 AM »
This discussion is very interesting and some of the data is being repeated on a new thread.

Bumping it up.


AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152